AWC with Maxi Dosers

[EddieJ]

Here is a question for you programable logic gurus. I have two Maxi Dosers, one pump is setup for ATO functions using one optical level sensor. Simple setup, optical sensor turns switch channel on and off and the maxi doser responds to that. That's been working good.

Now the second Maxi doser is setup for AWC. One pump is pulling from early in the sump and the other is replenishing in the return chamber (where the optical sensor is). The two pumps calibrate pretty close to each other, at around 300 ML/min. Looking to replace around 1.5 gallons (5677ml) a day. So I setup a timer for 6) 3 minute run cycles a day. Easy enough to setup that timer to a switch channel and run the OUT pump off that. What I need to accomplish is:

- ATO does not run during this time (no fresh water)
- FILL Maxi runs until Opitcal level sensor is satisfied
- Would like the FILL operation to start on a 1 minute delay or after the OUT operation has finished.

I was thinking of just trusting the in and out to run simultaneously but that is just looking for salinity swings to trust flow rates that much. I know you can accomplish AWC with two sensors, but I have my other sensor (floater) out of the water to act as a high sump alarm.

 

[griff500]

Can't you have the high-level sensor triggered exactly when the sump is filled with the return pump, skimmer, etc off for a water change, then take water out until the low-level sensor is triggered and then fill up until the high level sensor is triggered? Perhaps that would give the potential for an overflow in the sump but I don't know what capacity your sump has.

In that way you are replacing exactly what you have taken out and the only downside would be that the high-level sensor is triggered when all pumps are off and the sump has filled. You could probably set the high-level alarm to only be sent if you haven't pushed an AWC Maintenance task when the high-level sensor goes off. If there's no AWC Maintenance task is process and the high-level alarm goes off then send an alarm? Although you wouldn't want to turn off all the pumps at that point so you'd probably have an overflow

 

[EddieJ]

Can't you have the high-level sensor triggered exactly when the sump is filled with the return pump, skimmer, etc off for a water change, then take water out until the low-level sensor is triggered and then fill up until the high level sensor is triggered? Perhaps that would give the potential for an overflow in the sump but I don't know what capacity your sump has.

In that way you are replacing exactly what you have taken out and the only downside would be that the high-level sensor is triggered when all pumps are off and the sump has filled. You could probably set the high-level alarm to only be sent if you haven't pushed an AWC Maintenance task when the high-level sensor goes off. If there's no AWC Maintenance task is process and the high-level alarm goes off then send an alarm? Although you wouldn't want to turn off all the pumps at that point so you'd probably have an overflow

I am not looking to shut everything down etc.. this is a 900-1000ML water exchange that will happen 6 times a day. since it's a small amount that will basically act like evaporation. So I just need to disable the ATO during the events so saltwater is filling to the ATO sensor level and not fresh water. I do agree, your idea would work excellent for larger automated water changes.

 

[griff500]

I see what you mean if you are doing regular water changes while the system is running.

I realise now that you were just looking for the programming required to trigger the fill after the water had been removed. I haven't got a clue, so I'll be interested to see what the programming is for this! I'm in the process of setting up a full GHL system and watching these sort of things with significant interest!

Perhaps @Lasse could help? He seems to be somewhat of a Profilux guru!

 

[EddieJ]

I see what you mean if you are doing regular water changes while the system is running.

I realise now that you were just looking for the programming required to trigger the fill after the water had been removed. I haven't got a clue, so I'll be interested to see what the programming is for this! I'm in the process of setting up a full GHL system and watching these sort of things with significant interest!

Perhaps @Lasse could help? He seems to be somewhat of a Profilux guru!

Yes, I am looking at other examples of PL in the posts here trying to put it together as well.

 

[Ditto]

I went to make sure I fully understand this,

You have one optical switch you using it to determine the fill mark for the ATO.

You want to pull water out based on a timer with one maxi and one minute later let the other max put water back in.

During the time the maxi are doing the awc you do not want to fill water?

 

[EddieJ]

I went to make sure I fully understand this,

You have one optical switch you using it to determine the fill mark for the ATO.

You want to pull water out based on a timer with one maxi and one minute later let the other max put water back in.

During the time the maxi are doing the awc you do not want to fill water?

Yes, that is exactly it ... ATO fill off during the time that one maxi pulls water out and other maxi fills back to level

 

[Mortie31]

I use a maxi to do just this, I run both pumps simultaneously, I have the water out tube in my skimmer section, and the new salt water in tube into my return section, where the ATO sensor is. This way it doesn’t trigger my ATO, so no need for any fancy programming...I simply set the volume and frequency... dead simple, been working like this for over a year now.

 

[EddieJ]

I use a maxi to do just this, I run both pumps simultaneously, I have the water out tube in my skimmer section, and the new salt water in tube into my return section, where the ATO sensor is. This way it doesn’t trigger my ATO, so no need for any fancy programming...I simply set the volume and frequency... dead simple, been working like this for over a year now.

I was thinking about this as both pumps calibrate out at about 300 ml/min. Guess I am thinking about the accuracy of these pumps .. I have mine setup the same way , where is pulls water from the first chamber in the sump and puts water back in by the return .. The PL way I believe would lessen the worry about accuracy of the pumps .. of course then again , a few MLs off isn’t going to create a huge problem .. I guess if one of the pumps didn’t operate correctly you could be open for some problems . Such as one didn’t pump out but the fill pump did operate.. or vice versa where the fill didn’t pump and the ATO ran replacing with fresh ..

 

[Mortie31]

I was thinking about this as both pumps calibrate out at about 300 ml/min. Guess I am thinking about the accuracy of these pumps .. I have mine setup the same way , where is pulls water from the first chamber in the sump and puts water back in by the return .. The PL way I believe would lessen the worry about accuracy of the pumps .. of course then again , a few MLs off isn’t going to create a huge problem .. I guess if one of the pumps didn’t operate correctly you could be open for some problems . Such as one didn’t pump out but the fill pump did operate.. or vice versa where the fill didn’t pump and the ATO ran replacing with fresh ..

Exactly, any difference is so small as to be negligible, when you think of variability in skimmer waste, I also have a KHD taking water out to factor in and I’ve not had any issues with salinity at all. You could in theory have issues if one pump head broke and you didn’t spot It for some reason, but I have sump level switches to inform me if levels are 2 high or low, and an alarm if my salinity levels change so pretty covered..

 

[Ditto]

Sorry was snowblowing

Ok so lets try this .

I am going out with some assumptions now

Timer 8 is tied to one Pump (Pump that Draws Water)
Timer 9 is tied to the other Pump. (Pump that Add water) (I was not sure if you were doing this or not?)

Lets set up two Advance Logics:

Program Logic 10
On the First one it would be your ATO Fill water with the sensor your using for the ATO
And the Second one will be the next program Logic for my example 11 and the function is a AND

Input 1: fill Water (ATO Only 1)
Input 2: Program Logic 11
Function : And

On the Second Program Logic which on my example 11 above, I am going to place both timers on it and Invert them both with a OR.
This should then only allow the Fill Water to work, while the AWC is not on.

Input 1: Timer 8 Inverted
Input 2: Timer 9 Inverted
Function: And

For the Pump that adding the Water if you wanted to just delay it one minute after your timer:

Input 1: Timer 9
Function Delay and then do your 1 minute

Or

Input 1: Timer 9
Input 2: Program Logic # (The second part of the Logic)
Function: And

Second program Logic:
ATO Fill and the number (Since you said you wanted it to use the Optical Sensor)
Function Delay and then do your one minute

We would need to try that one

 

[EddieJ]

Exactly, any difference is so small as to be negligible, when you think of variability in skimmer waste, I also have a KHD taking water out to factor in and I’ve not had any issues with salinity at all. You could in theory have issues if one pump head broke and you didn’t spot It for some reason, but I have sump level switches to inform me if levels are 2 high or low, and an alarm if my salinity levels change so pretty covered..

Just ran a 1000ML change and yes, it worked pretty flawlessly. I watched the level and it didn't appear to change at all and did not trigger the ATO at all. The only hole or concern is if the fill pump failed, the ATO would be dumping RODI and If I am away I may not notice that. I can alarm on conductivity that's true. So I guess I would like to setup some PL that will disable the two Maxi dosers if conductivity get's out of line..

 

[Mortie31]

Just ran a 1000ML change and yes, it worked pretty flawlessly. I watched the level and it didn't appear to change at all and did not trigger the ATO at all. The only hole or concern is if the fill pump failed, the ATO would be dumping RODI and If I am away I may not notice that. I can alarm on conductivity that's true. So I guess I would like to setup some PL that will disable the two Maxi dosers if conductivity get's out of line..

I use the level sensors and salinity alarms to simply turn the power off on both my ATO and AWC dosers if my containers are empty or sump high or salinity changes, that way I don’t have to worry about it and can deal with it later, the PL route is the sofisticated way but having multiple sensors confuses the heck out of me when programming...

 

[EddieJ]

Sorry was snowblowing

Ok so lets try this .

I am going out with some assumptions now

Timer 8 is tied to one Pump (Pump that Draws Water)
Timer 9 is tied to the other Pump. (Pump that Add water) (I was not sure if you were doing this or not?)

Lets set up two Advance Logics:

Program Logic 10
On the First one it would be your ATO Fill water with the sensor your using for the ATO
And the Second one will be the next program Logic for my example 11 and the function is a AND

Input 1: fill Water (ATO Only 1)
Input 2: Program Logic 11
Function : And

On the Second Program Logic which on my example 11 above, I am going to place both timers on it and Invert them both with a OR.
This should then only allow the Fill Water to work, while the AWC is not on.

Input 1: Timer 8 Inverted
Input 2: Timer 9 Inverted
Function: And

For the Pump that adding the Water if you wanted to just delay it one minute after your timer:

Input 1: Timer 9
Function Delay and then do your 1 minute

Or

Input 1: Timer 9
Input 2: Program Logic # (The second part of the Logic)
Function: And

Second program Logic:
ATO Fill and the number (Since you said you wanted it to use the Optical Sensor)
Function Delay and then do your one minute

We would need to try that one

Thanks Ditto! Yeah , lots of snow here !! Been out running the snowblower a few times.

Will give it a try .. thanks for the guidance !

 

[Ditto]

@EddieJ - No problems glad to help but @Mortie31 - also has some great points also

 

[griff500]

Love this forum - always something interesting to read and learn!

 

[Lasse]

I was not fast enough - was on my way to suggest Dittos solution 1

But if you assign your doser to one of the predefinated dosers - let us say doser 15 and doser 16 you set a time for doser 15 - and to dose out 1000 ml. Calculate the time it will take. Start pump doser 16 (pumping in water) the calculated time minus 1 sec after pump 1. Make that time for pumping in 1000 ml.

In PL 11 you change timer 8 and 9 for pump 15 and 16 - still inverted

PL 10 should be the same as Dittos

Input 1: fill Water (ATO Only 1)
Input 2: Program Logic 11
Function : And

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Ditto]

Whooohoo Great Minds think alike.

 

[mshur]

Guys,
Looking for advice who is running Maxi for only water changes. Right now i am using Letermeter , 8 g per day. Do you think Maxi can do this lets say 2 x4 g per day .? just not sure if motors can last long . Using Letermeter for past 8 years without any problems, just tubing changing once a year..

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Ditto]

I believe my math is Correct

From the GHL Website "The GHL Doser Maxi is the perfect dosing device for automatic water changes, .... Average lifetime: 5000 hours for the motor, 800 hours for the pump head."

If your doing 8 Gallons a day. that is 30283.3 ML, which is a average of 311 ML a minute would be you would need 97 Minutes or 1.5 Hours would be spent.

You would get 533 Days before you would need to replace a Doser Head 3,333 Days before you would replace the Motor.