Back at it! Peroxide vrs cyanobacteria

[Russ265]

Now we just need to find a dosing regiment for dinos. Went away during treatment but returned shortly after.

2ml an hour on a doser on my 300 system did them in in a couple months.

sps were fine. zoas didnt close.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

H2O2 is sensitive to light I dont believe it has to be UV as it can decomp in ambient room lighting rather quickly.
But my tank is approx two weeks out after dosing H2O2 and here is how its looking.

Normal sunlight and even a lot of man-made light sources contain some UV. The peroxide is naturally unstable but is also UV sensitive, hence the brown bottles it's sold in.

 

[mazoli]

I am basing dose based on ORP as this may be the only negative I can see within a marine tank.
In my opinion we don't want to keep ORP low for extended amounts of time.

I thought H2O2 has the same effect as ozone, meaning raising ORP, not lowering it. Both are oxydizing, why would H2O2 lower ORP? Just trying to understand. thanks

 

[laga77]

Three weeks since I have stopped dosing H2O2 and NO cyano. I am so glad I found this thread. The cyano problem so bad at times I was contemplating tearing down the tank and doing a restart.

 

[twilliard]

I thought H2O2 has the same effect as ozone, meaning raising ORP, not lowering it. Both are oxydizing, why would H2O2 lower ORP? Just trying to understand. thanks

This also was a question that I brought up with Randy.
So far all the Apex probes are showing a lowering of ORP
He commented about this somewhere in these pages.

 

[brandon429]

I think if you measured orp in a clean beaker then spike w perox, it would raise (somebody check it out, holler~)

but done in a tank where organics grab the peroxide immediately, as the water is chock full of organics not even counting the substrate (compared to clean beaker water never in the presence of bioloading) that changes the ORP behavior solely due to the actions of organics on the oxidizer. not sure of the mechanisms at all.

 

[buckeye82]

Now we just need to find a dosing regiment for dinos. Went away during treatment but returned shortly after.

Ditto. Peroxide alone to treat dinos or at least tough to kill Dino strands doesn't work. Keeps it muffled and unable to spread at rampart pace but does not deliver the TKO.

 

[Mark Shelly]

Someone mentioned losing a starfish they didn't want anyway. I tried quoting but failed;, still new to this forum. (Abbreviations and acronyms also make it hard to follow some threads)
If my understanding is correct starfish eat bacteria, which is why they are not recommended for new tanks. Will killing the cyanobacteria in the tank reduce the food for starfish? Or, do they not eat this type of bacteria, so removing it will allow other bacteria to flourish by freeing up the nutrients?

 

[brandon429]

bacteria are merely incidental in their foraging, as they sift through clumps of detritus, floc, sno and live animals (pods etc) they do take in bacteria and gain nutrients but that goes for anything eaten from the ocean as well, so its not so much a bacteria-specific diet. if not adding medications, we don't ever have to be careful around our bacteria they are the most adapted life forms in the tank. hardest to kill of all animals as a group...

starfish tend to reduce the live animals people like in sandbeds

 

[twilliard]

Someone mentioned losing a starfish they didn't want anyway. I tried quoting but failed;, still new to this forum. (Abbreviations and acronyms also make it hard to follow some threads)
If my understanding is correct starfish eat bacteria, which is why they are not recommended for new tanks. Will killing the cyanobacteria in the tank reduce the food for starfish? Or, do they not eat this type of bacteria, so removing it will allow other bacteria to flourish by freeing up the nutrients?

There has been no evidence of h2o2 harming our beneficial bacteria by conducting multiple test for amonia.

 

[Russ265]

Ditto. Peroxide alone to treat dinos or at least tough to kill Dino strands doesn't work. Keeps it muffled and unable to spread at rampart pace but does not deliver the TKO.

problem is. you can KO the heck out of it. (i did 300 ml in my 300 gal system) and i never saw it until a week later.

it was easier to just remain diligent and keep peroxide on the doser for a couple months.

kept in check is better than ravaging corals...

 

[buckeye82]

problem is. you can KO the heck out of it. (i did 300 ml in my 300 gal system) and i never saw it until a week later.

it was easier to just remain diligent and keep peroxide on the doser for a couple months.

kept in check is better than ravaging corals...

Don't disagree. That is what I'm doing. Peroxide for about 35 or so days so far. Added a oversized UV sterilizer into the setup along with just running blues and honestly since then I've noticed them having a harder time coming back. Still the last 5-10% visual percent of them that I'm working hard to try to get out. Definitively not a silver bullet to taking out all Dino strands.

 

[Russ265]

Don't disagree. That is what I'm doing. Peroxide for about 35 or so days so far. Added a oversized UV sterilizer into the setup along with just running blues and honestly since then I've noticed them having a harder time coming back. Still the last 5-10% visual percent of them that I'm working hard to try to get out. Definitively not a silver bullet to taking out all Dino strands.

yeah man. i tried the "one and done" approach but dinos are too tenacious. you are going the same route i ended up taking to finally become successful.

you got 30-60 days left imo. then it is over. i know it doesnt do what you want... but man these things are a pain.

be glad your tank isnt a total loss. most give up and start over. you are near the finish line.

you are doing EVERYTHING i would prescribe for a dino outbreak. i mean all of it

 

[mazoli]

I think if you measured orp in a clean beaker then spike w perox, it would raise (somebody check it out, holler~)

but done in a tank where organics grab the peroxide immediately, as the water is chock full of organics not even counting the substrate (compared to clean beaker water never in the presence of bioloading) that changes the ORP behavior solely due to the actions of organics on the oxidizer. not sure of the mechanisms at all.

Yes, it could be this. Would be great if someone who understands this in more detail, would describe the biological process/processes, to get a more indepth understanding of this whole issue.

Another followup to this though, is if alone the oxidizing quality of the peroxide is the sole factor in eliminating ciano, then who is using ozone should never encounter ciano. Is this happening/valid/true/logical?

 

[buckeye82]

yeah man. i tried the "one and done" approach but dinos are too tenacious. you are going the same route i ended up taking to finally become successful.

you got 30-60 days left imo. then it is over. i know it doesnt do what you want... but man these things are a pain.

be glad your tank isnt a total loss. most give up and start over. you are near the finish line.

you are doing EVERYTHING i would prescribe for a dino outbreak. i mean all of it

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I refuse to quit but can't count how many hundreds of hours I've spent (as many others with a nasty strand of them) trying to get them out. It's mainly just the frag tray tops and some random spots on the acrylic sides they keep spotting back up. Just hard for me to imagine them suddenly deciding to stop regenerating. I won't know what to do with the time I get back with them gone hopefully soon!

 

[twilliard]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I refuse to quit but can't count how many hundreds of hours I've spent (as many others with a nasty strand of them) trying to get them out. It's mainly just the frag tray tops and some random spots on the acrylic sides they keep spotting back up. Just hard for me to imagine them suddenly deciding to stop regenerating. I won't know what to do with the time I get back with them gone hopefully soon!

I will be starting this weekend to culture dinoflagellates to get a jump on my next writeup

 

[Russ265]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I refuse to quit but can't count how many hundreds of hours I've spent (as many others with a nasty strand of them) trying to get them out. It's mainly just the frag tray tops and some random spots on the acrylic sides they keep spotting back up. Just hard for me to imagine them suddenly deciding to stop regenerating. I won't know what to do with the time I get back with them gone hopefully soon!

those last little strands are the toughies. and even if they go away... you gotta keep the peroxide going.

i killed 90% of them with my "bomb". but that last 1-10% was what kept my doser going.

if you keep it on the doser, just let it keep going. they have no choice but to die in the end.

 

[BluewaterLa]

@twilliard I must say I am truly impressed with your work and dedication to this subject. Thankful as well.
I just joined this club, shortly after setting up my account details, this thread was the first to catch my attention and have read the thread from beginning to end.
I myself have searched for a way to rid tanks of cyano bacteria after running into a brown snot like strand in a tank I got from another member in my local reef club.
Many hours of searching the interwebs, I found an article that recommended the use of cuprisorb( copper absorption media) to remove the iron from the water that the bacteria feeds off of. This side effect of this media worked great in starving out this substance. I did not have a microscope to confirm what I was dealing with weather it was Dino's or a cyano strand.
I posted my findings on our local reef club forum for others to read just in case they were experiencing this similar looking cyano problem and have been searching for information in European countries on peroxide dosing to kill cyano. I have used this treatment to rid my tank of cyano successfully last year and had the thought that I had reintroduced cyano back into my tank after buying or trading frags with other local reefers.
After reading all pages included here I have a greater understanding of what I am dealing with currently in my reef.
I do have red / maroon cyano on my rocks and sand, but the patches on my rock appear to have same colored but different bacteria or substance mixed in as well. The texture is different and appears to have a better hold on the rock as it doesn't siphon off easily like the cyano mats. Makes perfect sense that some forms of dinoflagellates and spirulinia look similar to Cyanobacteria. I've always believed that there were different stands , so to speak, of cyano and Dino's and your work with a microscope has given us a greater understanding of what we encounter in our aquariums.
Thank you for your time and the time of those that helped you out on this subject.
And a little shout out and thanks to a member of my local reef club for recommending that I join R2R community @Humblefish

 

[ChytownPrincess]

H2O2 or hydrogen peroxide is simply a water molecule with an extra oxygen attached. Many people assume that when a wound is irrigated, the bubbles they see is bactericidal; however, that is not the case. The bubbles are caused by an enzyme catalyst found in living tissue called peroxidase. While the bubbles are superb for dehridelment, it is not an indicative of antibacterial properties.

 

[Bronc]

I'll probably need to send you a sample of mine, twilliard. I have a large red area that just isn't responding to H2O2. Doing 2 treatments a day at 8am and 8pm. I have a 25g tank, no sump, so using 2.5ml per dose.