Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[Dr. Reef]

Would the ATM bacteria be considered Heterotrophic?

According to my small budget domestic study which is not lab grade nor professional and according to my carbon source theory, my assumption is that the products that failed to perform in a sterile tank but did well when food/ carbon was introduced, are most likely to be Heterotrophic bacteria.
Without a full lab study it's hard to say but my testing and experimentation seems to suggest that.

 

[Hybrid Ken]

@Hybrid Ken
Thank you for sharing and please do share your numbers and tank info.
In my sterile new tank stability failed to reduce 1ppm ammonia. But you have shrimp in the tank which brings carbon source. Unfortunately at the time of my testing I was not aware of the carbon theory and didnt test the first group with it.
I did test the second group of product and they all stalled in sterile tank while made progress when food was introduced.
I am getting ready to test all products again with food from day 1 to see if that make any difference in speed of Cycling.

Ok I will copy the data from my tablet at work tomorrow and bring it home. I will include temp, salinity, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, bio boost dose schedule and any thing else I can remember. My personal thought is the dead shrimp gives a stronger bacteria base at the end of the cycle being its still in there and they are eating up the ammonia as fast as it is being produced.

 

[Hybrid Ken]

Ok I have all the data now. This is a 24 gallon rear sump tank. Seachem Stability is dosed as follows: First dose is 5 ml per 10 gallons of tank water. then 5ml per 20 gallons for the next 7 days. Testing is done once a week. A 6 gallon water change is done after testing for nitrate control.

22 December start RODI water in tank. and a medium size shrimp from Safeway dropped in.
Temp 79.5
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.025

29 December
Temp 79.6
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.4
Nitrite 1.0
Nitrate 20.0

04 January
Temp 78.7
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 1.0
Nitrate 50

11 January
Temp 78.9
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.024
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 1.05
Nitrate 10

 

[Brew12]

Ok I have all the data now. This is a 24 gallon rear sump tank. Seachem Stability is dosed as follows: First dose is 5 ml per 10 gallons of tank water. then 5ml per 20 gallons for the next 7 days. Testing is done once a week. A 6 gallon water change is done after testing for nitrate control.

22 December start RODI water in tank. and a medium size shrimp from Safeway dropped in.
Temp 79.5
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.025

29 December
Temp 79.6
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.4
Nitrite 1.0
Nitrate 20.0

04 January
Temp 78.7
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 1.0
Nitrate 50

11 January
Temp 78.9
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.024
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 1.05
Nitrate 10

Not sure if it's already been mentioned but don't worry about nitrates at this point, you won't get an accurate measurement. All of the hobby level nitrate tests (that I am aware of, anyway) break the nitrates down to nitrites to measure them. If you have nitrites in your system your nitrate test will read high. Depending on the test, it may read much higher. Don't trust nitrate tests until nitrites are at 0.

 

[Hybrid Ken]

Not sure if it's already been mentioned but don't worry about nitrates at this point, you won't get an accurate measurement. All of the hobby level nitrate tests (that I am aware of, anyway) break the nitrates down to nitrites to measure them. If you have nitrites in your system your nitrate test will read high. Depending on the test, it may read much higher. Don't trust nitrate tests until nitrites are at 0.

40 years of fish keeping, I know this...…....but it shows the progress of the cycle and for this purpose of data collection I think it has pertinence.

 

[Brew12]

40 years of fish keeping, I know this...…....but it shows the progress of the cycle and for this purpose of data collection I think it has pertinence.

All data has a purpose and can be pertinent as long as it is properly understood. I only mention it because I run across people on R2R all the time that see their nitrates "drop" towards the end of a cycle and think they have some major denitrification going on. For those without your experience (and these topics tend to be followed more by new reefers) I feel this is an important concept to understand.

 

[nbd13]

Hey everyone,

So whatevs the consensus on what bottles bacteria to use with all the testing to cycle dry rock?

Dr. Tim’s?
Frtiz turbo start 900?
Something else?

Thanks,

Nick

 

[Dr. Reef]

Hi Nick
If it's just dry rock in a sterile tank no fish or fish food etc then fritz Turbostart 900 will give you the fasted cycle followed by bio Spria and dr Tim's.
If there is fish or fish food etc then any of the products will work including 3 mentioned above.
These 3 will work in fish less tank while other will require either fish or some carbon source like fish food or deli shrimp etc to work.
Assumption: According to my study
I hope that helps.

 

[nbd13]

Hi Nick
If it's just dry rock in a sterile tank no fish or fish food etc then fritz Turbostart 900 will give you the fasted cycle followed by bio Spria and dr Tim's.
If there is fish or fish food etc then any of the products will work including 3 mentioned above.
These 3 will work in fish less tank while other will require either fish or some carbon source like fish food or deli shrimp etc to work.
Assumption: According to my study
I hope that helps.

Thanks. Yes it’s just dry rock. Was going to cycle it/cook it in a trash can while I’m finishing setting up my tank. Just saltwater, dry rock, Heater and powerheads.

I have some ammonia chloride coming too. Was going to use Frtiz and then like it cycle and after 2-3 weeks dose ammonia chloride to 2 ppm and see if in 24 hours ammonia goes to zero.

Does that make sense?

Thanks,

Nick

 

[Dr. Reef]

Yes that will work, Fritz Turbostart 900, bio spira and Dr Tim, any on these will work for what you are doing with Fritz to be the fastest to cycle.

I will guess that your initial ammonia of 2 ppm will fall to 0 in 3 days or so. Then 2 weeks later another dose of 2ppm will reduce to 0 in 24-48 hrs.

Please post your progress, I am curious to see how it does in real environments compared to sterile tank study.

 

[nbd13]

Yes that will work, Fritz Turbostart 900, bio spira and Dr Tim, any on these will work for what you are doing with Fritz to be the fastest to cycle.

I will guess that your initial ammonia of 2 ppm will fall to 0 in 3 days or so. Then 2 weeks later another dose of 2ppm will reduce to 0 in 24-48 hrs.

Please post your progress, I am curious to see how it does in real environments compared to sterile tank study.

Sounds good. Happy to contribute and will keep track of it.

Thanks again,

Nick

 

[MnFish1]

All data has a purpose and can be pertinent as long as it is properly understood. I only mention it because I run across people on R2R all the time that see their nitrates "drop" towards the end of a cycle and think they have some major denitrification going on. For those without your experience (and these topics tend to be followed more by new reefers) I feel this is an important concept to understand.

Actually - ive been doing this for a long time as well - Never knew that - so thanks for the information. That said - I dont test ammonia, nitrite or nitrate when setting up a tank - so I wouldn't have noticed the drop.

 

[nightmarepl]

so im setting up a new tank with live sand and dry rock which bacteria would be the best cause im seeing alot of mixed results

 

[Dr. Reef]

for fastest cycle in any combination of sand/live sand/dry or live rock etc without fish Fritz TurboStart 900 is the goto bottle. If you are going to setup the tank and use food or carbon sources then any product will cycle the tank.
In my opinion the list i would make if i was to would be Fritz turbostart 900 then bio spira then dr tim then another product i tested.
Reminder there are few other things that have come up during the initial testing which i have not tested further and i cant comment on such.
I think if i use food from day one results may change from the study already done without carbon source.

 

[brandon429]

Edit live rock
needs no assistance other than saltwater

self sustaining for years, shown in fallow test threads. Even the coralline remained. Passes oxidation test within 24 hours after not being fed for three years in a garage bin.

Saltwater is all that's required for it to self sustain years.

No retail product required to support live rock storage, transfer and re set up

Cured lr never uncycles in any normal storage or use or transfer setting.

 

[User]

Ok I have all the data now. This is a 24 gallon rear sump tank. Seachem Stability is dosed as follows: First dose is 5 ml per 10 gallons of tank water. then 5ml per 20 gallons for the next 7 days. Testing is done once a week. A 6 gallon water change is done after testing for nitrate control.

22 December start RODI water in tank. and a medium size shrimp from Safeway dropped in.
Temp 79.5
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.025

29 December
Temp 79.6
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.4
Nitrite 1.0
Nitrate 20.0

04 January
Temp 78.7
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 1.0
Nitrate 50

11 January
Temp 78.9
PH 8.0
Salinity 1.024
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 1.05
Nitrate 10

I don’t want to be a pedant, but since ‘we’ are trying to be scientific and all, how come your rodi water

 

[MnFish1]

Edit live rock
needs no assistance other than saltwater

self sustaining for years, shown in fallow test threads. Even the coralline remained. Passes oxidation test within 24 hours after not being fed for three years in a garage bin.

Saltwater is all that's required for it to self sustain years.

No retail product required to support live rock storage, transfer and re set up

Cured lr never uncycles in any normal storage or use or transfer setting.

We've discussed this before - The fall0w test threads don't show this (at least not the ones that you showed)
1. Supposedly bacteria in a bottle doesnt survive without oxygen and ammonia (how could nitrifiers survive in a garage bin a garbage bin (essentials a large bottle) for 3 years - unless they were heterotrophs (which the experts here say cant completely cycle a tank)
2. Cured live rock will lose nitrifiers over time if they have no ammonia source - or oxygen.

Again if your argument is that it doesnt matter whether heterotrophs or autotrophs are used - the only factor is that the ammonia goes down - thats another thing.

 

[MnFish1]

for fastest cycle in any combination of sand/live sand/dry or live rock etc without fish Fritz TurboStart 900 is the goto bottle. If you are going to setup the tank and use food or carbon sources then any product will cycle the tank.
In my opinion the list i would make if i was to would be Fritz turbostart 900 then bio spira then dr tim then another product i tested.
Reminder there are few other things that have come up during the initial testing which i have not tested further and i cant comment on such.
I think if i use food from day one results may change from the study already done without carbon source.

Curious - have you changed your opinion about whether heterotrophs can be used to cycle a tank - I still cant get a clear feeling as to whether the goal is to merely lower the ammonia to 0 - or to produce a complete nitrogen cycle. @mikeyn seems to say that only autotrophs can cycle a tank - and I thought you agreed with that statement.

Of course - using only ammonia as a 'food' clearly only autotrophs can be used to cycle a tank (ie.. Dr Tim' method)- the confusion (my confusion) is - do you think that if one adds carbon and heterotrophs that the cycle will be 'as good'? Thanks.

 

[brandon429]

MN
disagreed fully. most nano reefers and pico reefers already know that live rock stores, transfers and can be modified without losing bacteria and needing bottle bac or feeding we've got a whole wing of the industry based on this trustworthy nature of live rock.

your constant attempts to define certain groups away from the measures they impart is just distracting and repetitive. who cares if various groups exchange over time, your biofilter doesn't die back, the ability to manage ammonia continues just like a normal tank and does not change. it passes the same tests, same time frames, who cares which clades are working- the benefits are the issue. nitrifers are not dead on those rocks, you have nothing to back up your claims at all.

my intention was to again state that live rock stored needs no help, you have simply done no work in the matter... just armchairing.

those rocks stored were never sterile to begin with and had years of perpetual organic stores wedged in the pores + living animals to thrive for a while, then degrade into more supporting organics, not counting a few gnats that land in the system over time cuz its a garage and not a lab.

that you'd claim a wet environment like that wont sustain nitrifiers is really illuminating. my statements are coming not only from a few storage tests but from large scale peroxide testing where we actually stress the bacteria in many ways, then measure nitrification. its from thousands of tiny tanks setup and fed back that would die with the slightest bit of inconsistency in what live rocks can do without assistance, we saw how various rock setups were moved and transported and stored then used, in pattern.

the big total picture, afforded by works collected, is that live rock will not uncycle in any normal hydrated setting, even with strong variances in temp and salinity. they certainly do not have to be dosed with bottle bac.

 

[MnFish1]

@brandon429 It would be really helpful if you would quote the parts of other people posts you're commenting on - because I really have no clue what your response above is all about. But - maybe part of the confusion is that you use words like nitrifiers - which is very broad - including many completely different types of bacteria. By definition - not all of those bacteria survive under the same conditions. Ie while heterotrophic bacteria (nitrifiers) may survive in a garage in a bucket for 3 years, autotrophic nitrifiers would not (unless all the research on the topic is incorrect) - ie. with no flow, oxygen, etc.

disagreed fully. most nano reefers and pico reefers already know that live rock stores, transfers and can be modified without losing bacteria and needing bottle bac or feeding we've got a whole wing of the industry based on this trustworthy nature of live rock.

I agree with you. If the live rock has been kept oxygenated with flow - and wet - for short periods, the autotrophic nitrifiers (and heterotrophs) will survive. Where do we disagree? If you add the amount of live rock from a nano tank - and the same filter - from same tank - into a 100 gallon tank - there are not enough nitrifiers to maintain a fully stocked 100 gallon tank of fish unless you wait a significant amount of time. If you take the live rock from a 100 gallon tank and add it to a new 100 gallon tank - I agree with you there is no need to do anything - except turn on the filter. Where do we disagree?

Everything I said about storage holds, and your constant attempts to define certain groups away from the measures they impart is just distracting and repetitive. who cares if various groups exchange over time, your biofilter doesn't die back, the ability to manage ammonia continues just like a normal tank and does not change. it passes the same tests, same time frames, who cares which clades are working- the benefits are the issue. nitrifers are not dead on those rocks, you have nothing to back up your claims at all.

Stop with the personal attacks and read what I wrote. I wrote that if you're not differentiating between heterotrophs and autotrophs what you're saying is likely correct. Others here say you need autotrophs for a cycle. (I asked one of those questions earlier today to that group) - Its not about disproving your ideas - its about understanding what you're trying to say.

So for the most part in my post I agreed with what you said. What claims do I need to back up?