Bacteria maintenance. What do you dose?

[Kenneth Wingerter]

you tell me, how many pico reefers are dosing maintenance bac (read the forum posts linked)

my claim is small accessible tanks using live rock never downscale to the point you need to redose bacteria. aggressive feeding and water changes runs them, forever, you dont have to pay people to measure your bac in a pico reef and you dont have to refresh them by paying money at the lfs, specific claims you can measure in my link prior

if a 14 yr experiment and all those links doesnt convince you, Ill question the evaluation perspective. show me some links other than your own tank for your counter claim

no, you tell me. you made the claim. and please specify what species of "bacteria" you're referencing.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

There is actually a fair amount of data to support the fact that adding bacteria to an established tank does not increase diversity - but - since you didnt quote the post you were referring to - its hard to tell what you were referring to

the only post i ever referred to was brandon's.

 

[brandon429]

You have about thirteen years of small tank data to peruse and see if we depend on bottle bac measures, or bottle bac dosing.

I arrived at my claim by being part of many those aquariums in follow up and measure, saving you the read. You were asked for one link and provided none, just ongoing debate, so that’s where we stand.

You are now clear on which niche of the hobby never needs measure or boosting of bac, link provided ranges back to 2007

If you were wondering why I didn’t list peer reviewed works as citation, it’s because they are not factored in any step of reefing in the link provided and my claim is that small reefs can simply feed and exchange water into permanent bacterial balance. Imbalances will register as hey, my pico reef died vs threads of longevity.

 

[MnFish1]

the only post i ever referred to was brandon's.

I know - I think he's probably correct based on what I've read

 

[Nano sapiens]

From what I've seen frequenting the Nano and Pico forums for the last 12 years, I would agree with Brandon429 that small nano and Pico aquarists tend not to dose bacteria (although mass marketing is making inroads here, too). The whole idea for many behind these mini reef aquariums is to keep costs low /manageble.

Personally, I do not dose any kind of bacteria supplement and rarely add anything to my now quite old 12g nano. Interestingly, a recent report from Aquabiomics showed that the system has above average diversity (66%, they are using the 50th percentile as the average from all samples submitted) which is quite unusual for an older reef tank. This system has never been submitted to any of the commercial 'fix it' products or any supplements other than Kalkwasser, magnesium and iodine, so I'll leave that out there as a possible reason for the unusually high biodiversity.

 

[brandon429]

if someone invents a bacterial doser that stops water changes or drastically reduces them to the point salt + makeup water cost is offset or beaten then they should earn one million dollars

water changes currently are cheapest and most reliable small tank controls imo

am aware large tanks with waste controls in place are using dutch synthetic and other methods to stop water changes, its really not yet been modeled in small tanks by the masses. business work, in out exchange, is our bacterial driver.
we've only copied the backflush mechanism zoos have been using sixty years to keep surface area open and active (unclogged) in their giant sand filters etc (whatever runs the dolphin pen for example)

its been well known for decades that backflushed systems self regulate

my only soapbox against bac dosers and bac measure, is the position they're required in some way.

they're optional

if you reduce work and cost though, if you increase efficiency and show me in other people's tank work patterns, my total respects / deserve a million bucks.

bacterial dosers that lower work in some way are cutting edge
So far, most of what large tankers do can be modeled in tiny reefs, the link shows. We can't stop at this water change prevention or Ill just claim dilution to be the rescue.

someone needs to try and run a long term dense coral pico on dosers and not do water changes, that will be new measure for science in general.

 

[brandon429]

Nano Sapiens I didn't know you got an assessment that is really neat to reflect on.

your tank has age, hundreds of flush-throughs to factor into the reading thank you for update on that

its backflushers balance even though I know all your water changes aren't storm surges, they're regular.

any inspection of your full tank shot shows no accumulation, however you want to arrive there. your shots show coral growth covering all vital surface area allowing no space for invasions to anchor. shaded by mass corals=controlled space and coralline takes over.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I know - I think he's probably correct based on what I've read

please refer to brandon's original claims about tank size/coral growth rates as originally stated. again, if anyone here has peer reviewed data to support those specific assertions, i'd love to see them.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

And again, what species of bacteria are you even speaking of here?

 

[brandon429]

peer reviewed data has no bearing on anything we do or any work thread we produce, only scrolling patterns count and you can infer what you will.

at no time in reefing other than talking about a chemistry measure would a peer review sway me at all, only the patterns others can replicate in a tank catches my eye. that may not be of value to you, we're dealing in different currencies.

am curious to see your bac breakdown NS and compare it to Pauls aquabiomic measure, two aged and cared for tanks, aquabiomics report shows breakdown of types of bac

 

[MnFish1]

please refer to brandon's original claims about tank size/coral growth rates as originally stated. again, if anyone here has peer reviewed data to support those specific assertions, i'd love to see them.

Here are a couple articles - if you read them you can easily see that - the bacteria that have already colonized a surface actively repel - resist colonization from others. Thus - decreased diversity over time. Im not quite sure what your point actually is though.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01652176.2016.1172132

Do Probiotics Really Work?

Although certain bacteria help treat some gut disorders, they have no known benefits for healthy people

www.scientificamerican.com

The idea that consuming probiotics can boost the ability of already well-functioning native bacteria to promote general health is dubious for a couple of reasons. Manufacturers of probiotics often select specific bacterial strains for their products because they know how to grow them in large numbers, not because they are adapted to the human gut or known to improve health. The particular strains of Bifidobacterium or Lactobacillus that are typically found in many yogurts and pills may not be the same kind that can survive the highly acidic environment of the human stomach and from there colonize the gut.

Even if some of the bacteria in a probiotic managed to survive and propagate in the intestine, there would likely be far too few of them to dramatically alter the overall composition of one's internal ecosystem. Whereas the human gut contains tens of trillions of bacteria, there are only between 100 million and a few hundred billion bacteria in a typical serving of yogurt or a microbe-filled pill. Last year a team of scientists at the University of Copenhagen published a review of seven randomized, placebo-controlled trials (the most scientifically rigorous types of studies researchers know how to conduct) investigating whether probiotic supplements—including biscuits, milk-based drinks and capsules—change the diversity of bacteria in fecal samples. Only one study—of 34 healthy volunteers—found a statistically significant change, and there was no indication that it provided a clinical benefit. “A probiotic is still just a drop in a bucket,” says Shira Doron, an infectious disease expert at Tufts Medical Center. “The gut always has orders of magnitude more microbes.”

 

[Nano sapiens]

Nano Sapiens I didn't know you got an assessment that is really neat to reflect on.

These tests are really quite interesting. There's still a lot to learn about the reef tank microbiome, but the test can be used to determine diversity and the relative abundance of each member of the microbial community. How to best react to the results (if a reaction is needed at all) is still being worked out.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Seems there’s a fierce debate going on against dosing bacteria. What’s the explanation for the success that people are seeing from dosing bacteria then?

 

[MnFish1]

Seems there’s a fierce debate going on against dosing bacteria. What’s the explanation for the success that people are seeing from dosing bacteria then?

There is no control. People have identical success without doing so...?

 

[LARedstickreefer]

There is no control. People have identical success without doing so...?

Its a hobby. Whose out performing controlled, scientific, trials?

This hobby is like 99% anecdotal evidence.

 

[MnFish1]

Its a hobby. Whose out performing controlled, scientific, trials?

This hobby is like 99% anecdotal evidence.

Sorry I wasnt more clear - My comment was anecdotal as well. People that don't dose bacteria also have great tanks.
So - those saying - I dose bacteria I have a great tank - are probably just as common as those that say - I dont dose bacteria I have a great tank'.

I never asked for a scientific trial. There is science - though - that suggests that adding bacteria to an established community does not create more 'diversity'. That has become a 'buzzword' in the 'hobby'.

 

[MnFish1]

Its a hobby. Whose out performing controlled, scientific, trials?

This hobby is like 99% anecdotal evidence.

By the way - it was you that asked the question below - I'm just surprised that you seem to be irritated because someone dared to answer your question? The explanation - is that lots of people have great tanks without adding bacteria - so its coincidence/luck/or something else

Seems there’s a fierce debate going on against dosing bacteria. What’s the explanation for the success that people are seeing from dosing bacteria then?

 

[Nano sapiens]

Its a hobby. Whose out performing controlled, scientific, trials?

This hobby is like 99% anecdotal evidence.

Aquabiomics is taking the first steps. Might want to read the articles on their website (more are sure to come) as their database of reef aquarium test results increases.

 

[Nano sapiens]

By the way - it was you that asked the question below - I'm just surprised that you seem to be irritated because someone dared to answer your question? The explanation - is that lots of people have great tanks without adding bacteria - so its coincidence/luck/or something else

I would suggest that the 'something else' for mature healthy tanks not dosing may be not in what people do, but what they don't do. If a reef aquarist is adding chemicals to fight XYZ issue (common these days of 'instant fix'), then one can expect the microbiome to be perturbed in one way or another. Adding 'bacteria in a bottle' may possibly help, but it may also be that the system will simply rebalance itself out over the time that the bottled bac is being dosed. Knowing which is the problem, but the ambiguity is also an opportunity that commercial entities naturally capitalize on. What we do know is that the vast majority of the bacteria and archaea found on the natural reef and in our reef aquariums can't be cultured in the lab. So that leaves the question; "What exactly is in these bottled bacteria products?" (few, if any, list their active ingredients).

 

[Martingale]

When I last setup a tank I used bio spira and live sand and cycling only took a week or so with dosing ammonia. I have similar results in FW. It works, but is unnecessary if you're patient. I buy the ammonia from ace, as it seems to readily have the pure ammonia at most stores compared to home depot and such.

I've always kept mesh bags of matrix in my tanks to use for another further cycling, and otherwise unless you're doing nutrient control it's not needed.