Bacteria maintenance. What do you dose?

[Rick Gaas]

Putting zeostart on a dosing pump was the greatest thing. No more daily manual dosing.

What benefits do you have from dosing zeostart?

 

[Rick Gaas]

for my red sea p500 this dose .4 ml Zeostart in morning, .04 ml in evening. 4 drops of Zeobak & Zeofood7 every Sunday. I feed 3 times a day. no3 2.5, po4 .019

What benefits do you see from dosing. Please provide some detail on each product. Thank you!

 

[Silent]

What benefits do you have from dosing zeostart?

Zeobac is dosing bacteria, zeostart is a carbon source, and zeofood is coral food. Zeolites are the rocks that remove ammonia before it can convert to nitrite before it converts to nitrate. Supposed to replicate a ultra low nutrient system with water changes and aggressive skimming.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Zeobac is dosing bacteria, zeostart is a carbon source, and zeofood is coral food. Zeolites are the rocks that remove ammonia before it can convert to nitrite before it converts to nitrate. Supposed to replicate a ultra low nutrient system with water changes and aggressive skimming.

I thought zeostart is another bacteria (nitrifying).

 

[Silent]

Who really know what all they have in it but it does contain a cabon source.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Who really know what all they have in it but it does contain a cabon source.

Zeofood smells like vinegar. I bet it is. Very expensive vinegar.

 

[AquaBiomics]

If someone were to test the effects of bottled bacterial products on the microbiome it would make sense to focus on the top 3-4 most widely used products. What do you think those would be?

 

[reefluvrr]

If someone were to test the effects of bottled bacterial products on the microbiome it would make sense to focus on the top 3-4 most widely used products. What do you think those would be?

I would think Microbacter 7, Zeobac, Vibrant.

I am trying Dr. Tim's Waste Away and have noticed a cleaner sand bed and higher ORP--so a shout out for them...

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

interesting thread for sure. one part of this discussion that has been lacking, or at least inadequately addressed, is the possibility that certain (maybe many) types of naturally occurring, beneficial bacteria might be absent from our systems through competitive interaction. in other words, many of these may have been introduced at some point but then went "extinct" due to competitive exclusion (especially during the so-called cycling period or following major disturbances). for anyone that might be interested, i found this to be an excellent overview of these interactions (sleeper cells, chem warfare, fight or flight responses, negotiation, cheating, etc.). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...wlMtkV5mXjRNOGqPMz_x7fONCi6iM09rheb88Y7CCMc7w

 

[AquaBiomics]

interesting thread for sure. one part of this discussion that has been lacking, or at least inadequately addressed, is the possibility that certain (maybe many) types of naturally occurring, beneficial bacteria might be absent from our systems due to competitive interaction. in other words, many of these may have been introduced at some point but then went "extinct" due to competitive exclusion (especially during the so-called cycling period or following major disturbances). for anyone that might be interested, i found this to be an excellent overview of these interactions (sleeper cells, chem warfare, fight or flight responses, negotiation, cheating, etc.). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...wlMtkV5mXjRNOGqPMz_x7fONCi6iM09rheb88Y7CCMc7w

This is an excellent point that often gets overlooked. Too often we hear "the microbes will get there eventually" as if inoculation was the only factor driving the formation of a microbial community. The order of arrival, and who else gets in, can also play important roles because of the interactions you describe.

And sometimes people ask why it would matter which microbes you have in your aquarium. These interactions among microbes may be one of the most important answers. The abundance of one type can and does affect the abundance of other types through these interactions (whether simply competition for resources or the many other kinds of interactions discussed in your link). Many of the benefits of specific types of microbes may simply result from inhibiting the growth of other, detrimental types.

Looks like a great review, thanks for the link!

 

[naterealbig]

I would think Microbacter 7, Zeobac, Vibrant.

I am trying Dr. Tim's Waste Away and have noticed a cleaner sand bed and higher ORP--so a shout out for them...

According to Jeff Jacobson, Vibrant is a bacteria product that works through a mechanism which directly attacks the algae - not secondarily through nitrate and/or phosphate reduction.

 

[acabgd]

Yes. I dose BioGro Marine at every water change (once per week). Been dosing for a year. Definitely seen an improvement in coral health and polyp extension, though it might not be directly related to this product as I never stopped using it (and don't plan to).

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Yes. I dose BioGro Marine at every water change (once per week). Been dosing for a year. Definitely seen an improvement in coral health and polyp extension, though it might not be directly related to this product as I never stopped using it (and don't plan to).

hadn't seen this one until now. checked out the website and they list only 4 of the genera included (and none to the level of species). are they more specific on the package about what species this contains?

 

[brandon429]

some how tank gallonage factors into how we assess the role of important bacteria, check for these trends in reefing and let me know if the assumption is far off base.

everyone here dosing retail items $ continually are large tankers and the corals are doing well, understood.


but if you search out every pico reef on any forum using regular coralline live rock, they have the same coral growth and are not adding retail $, ergo tank size determines how one sees the role of bacteria in their tank. pico reefs are nearly immune to retail purchasing and drive the same or more coral growth per unit of measure compared to 200 gallon reefs having to stay nursing at the lfs weekly.

we get same outcome off full water changes and blast feeding, those two alone boost the good bac and export the bad ones, raw numbers seem to imply.

checkout this forum too below, use google translator.

francenanorecif.com go meet them and chat with Philippe the site owner for european trends in reefing, such a good guy. Their site is neato to show international reefing contacts. their nanos are also not addicted to continued retail supplementation in the form of bac supplements.

we need to find ways to measure less outbound money flow from our reefing pockets to anyone else's

its not easy for large tankers to exchange water, they need efficiency help agreed. but include as addendum in any bac refreshment talks $ that nano reefs do not have to buy into this, literally.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

some how tank gallonage factors into how we assess the role of important bacteria, check for these trends in reefing and let me know if the assumption is far off base.

everyone here dosing retail items $ continually are large tankers and the corals are doing well, understood.


but if you search out every pico reef on any forum using regular coralline live rock, they have the same coral growth and are not adding retail $, ergo tank size determines how one sees the role of bacteria in their tank. pico reefs are nearly immune to retail purchasing and drive the same or more coral growth per unit of measure compared to 200 gallon reefs having to stay nursing at the lfs weekly.

we get same outcome off full water changes and blast feeding, those two alone boost the good bac and export the bad ones, raw numbers seem to imply.

checkout this forum too below, use google translator.

francenanorecif.com go meet them and chat with Philippe the site owner for european trends in reefing, such a good guy. Their site is neato to show international reefing contacts. their nanos are also not addicted to continued retail supplementation in the form of bac supplements.

we need to find ways to measure less outbound money flow from our reefing pockets to anyone else's

its not easy for large tankers to exchange water, they need efficiency help agreed. but include as addendum in any bac refreshment talks $ that nano reefs do not have to buy into this, literally.

yes, i would say that these assumptions are way off base. have you any data to support these claims?

 

[brandon429]

Pico Reef Journals

Reef Aquariums 5 Gallons and Smaller

www.nano-reef.com

check out pico reef forums and tanks lemme know if coral growth is solid, invasions low to non existent, and if they're dosing retail bac as maintenance.

we have created an entire niche in the hobby immune to 90% of the rules large tankers ascribe to reefing, and bacteria. what happened to human health pro biotics market has fully permeated reefing

those guys and gals are your clean eaters who exercise often they dont take supplements by and large


some do dose it agreed, its permeating all retail nowadays. Trying to show some old schoolers who dont have to. read up to page 20 there, tell me if trends seem different than claimed

look at Natalia's reefbowl there its about 5 yrs old there on page 1 Id call that shocking coral growth for a fishbowl.


so if everyone is using 3 gallons and below, we can corral performance to be totally consistent on just purple real live rock and water changes and feeding going years and years and years needing no refresh. my own pico is 14 coral growth is strong all years, constantly throwing out coral growth frags nobody wants locally.

nobody's pico is suffering from bacteria deficits if they start with live rock, we're finding that to be a neat factor that makes us not have to buy retail supplements to run fishbowl reefs. thats a zone for large tankers

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

so you have zero data to support the above claims.

 

[brandon429]

you tell me, how many pico reefers are dosing maintenance bac (read the forum posts linked)

my claim is small accessible tanks using live rock never downscale to the point you need to redose bacteria. aggressive feeding and water changes runs them, forever, you dont have to pay people to measure your bac in a pico reef and you dont have to refresh them by paying money at the lfs, specific claims you can measure in my link prior

if a 14 yr experiment and all those links doesnt convince you, Ill question the evaluation perspective. show me some links other than your own tank for your counter claim

 

[MnFish1]

Do you have data to show that old tanks are less diverse? And compared to what? I'd like to see it and the ages in years of the systems you have tested, ect. When is a tank specified as an "old" tank.

What's the diversity of an average tank? What does that even mean by the label "average" tank.

I'd like to see your data and sample sizes, ect. and the testing you have done.

It a actually makes sense. Lets say you take 1,000,000 strains of bacteria - just for the sake of discussion - which ever ones out compete each other and which ever can go to their appropriate niche will survive - Thus lets say 50% will die off - the ones that remain - will be 'in their places'. If you try to add back the 50% killed - likely - is that they will again be out competed - and die. As time goes on - there will be continued 'warfare' until only the hardiest strains of bacteria will survive - lets say its 10% of the original amount.

You can see this phenomenon - in the following way - add acropora frags, leather coral, aphasia, GSP and Xenia to a tank. In 5 years - assuming that nothing you've done has had a negative effect on those corals, do you think the diversity will be 'higher' or lower' - in a closed system

 

[MnFish1]

so you have zero data to support the above claims.

There is actually a fair amount of data to support the fact that adding bacteria to an established tank does not increase diversity - but - since you didnt quote the post you were referring to - its hard to tell what you were referring to