Bacterial Infections, STN

Discussion in 'General SPS Discussion' started by Mattrg02, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. gdemos

    gdemos Active Member

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    I would not hesitate to dose MB7 or others like Aquavitro Remediation as part of a routine husbandry/regimen... you may struggle to find documented studies that this approach (call it good bacteria vs. bad bacteria) is effective on battling vibrio xx. You'll likely find more documentation on temperature, cyanide, run-off, acidity, etc. as the 'cause' of vibrio infection. none of us are purposely adding road run-off, raising tank temp, or otherwise poisoning our systems.... but we are harboring animals subject to stresses and subject to bacterial infections, we are potentially adding things to our systems (think "dirty" hands, infected corals, infected fish, infected frag plugs, arragonite, media)... all of which contribute to the possibility of bacterial infection.

    So IMO (and this is what I do) why not go the bio-augmentation route? why note dose nitrifying bacteria, why not hit with strong UV after a while? i believe in this and the deplete/replenish approach; i.e., heavy Import, heavy Export of nutrients (feed heavy, skim heavy, water change, etc.) all this, and when you have a dying coral... prune it, remove it, do a big water change, then supplement. if you can accomplish this while keeping all else stable, i believe you are doing a beneficial thing.

    -Greg
     

  2. Flippers4pups

    Flippers4pups Fins up since 1993 R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Build Thread Contributor

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  3. cilyjr

    cilyjr Active Member R2R Supporter Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    Pretty much all hetrotrophic bacteria will use nitrate, V. shiloi absolutely will.

    V. shiloi yields positive catalase and oxidase testing, reduces nitrate to nitite, is a facultative aerobe, and is capable of acidic fermentation(1).

    I think pretty much all of the Vibrionaceae are hetrotrophic. And gram-negative. Gram-negative bacteria is good at resisting antibiotics.

    Let's pretend for fun that there is going to be some different Vibrio bacteria in all systems (which I personally believe) and always be. Maybe an organism has a certain resistance to bacterial infection. No perhaps the organism has some stress inducing factor (temp, or alk swing come to mind) and is now dealing with that. The bacteria may have an opportunity to gain a foothold on the organism and after a few weeks some signs of white band disease (STN) show.

    The OPs theory of out competing bacteria makes sense in this scenario and there are bacteria that will actively attack and kill other bacteria
    Bdellovibrio has been observed to be predatory on some vibrio strains. Other hetrotrophs might just out compete



    (1)Kushmaro A., Banin E., Loya Y., Stackebrandt E. and E. Rosenberg. 2001. Vibrio shiloi sp. nov., the causative agent of bleaching of the coral Oculina patagonica. International Journal of Systematic and Evolutionary Microbiology [Internet]
     
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  4. cilyjr

    cilyjr Active Member R2R Supporter Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    I dose a few different strains of bacteria for this reason. I also drop a few drops of iodine from time to time not because some people say that certain inverts require a small amount but rather because of its antiseptic qualities. This works for me it's all anecdotal obviously but it keeps my reef happy and me doing something
     
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  5. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Good points. I concur on all of them. But it does go into the other conversation eluded to.
    IMO , it's not just nitrifying bacteria we are trying to cultivate when bio diversity and competition are called into question.

    Ie , I know a lot things that eat bacteria.
     
  6. gdemos

    gdemos Active Member

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    no doubt that a 'bacterial balance' or quasi biological balance is critical to long-term success and should be included in the topic of "keeping things stable"

    like @cilyjr , i also like lugols dose, bacterial dose, keeping flow, lots of flow random and heavy (I also like turkey basting), keeping detritus low especially any that settles on acro, grazing fish - grazing inverts, sponges (naturally growing filter feeders)

    I liked Dr. Forest's overview and lecture, while i may not run out and dose an antibiotic or get a clam...this is a very worthy consideration (i also like the reference to tide <flow, water change>)his insight in real world knowledge transcending to hobbyists is fantastic.
     
  7. Mattrg02

    Mattrg02 Valuable Member

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    Seems to be mb7 under a Tunze name, no?

    For what it’s worth, I just dosed some mb7. First off, my nitrates dropped in half overnight. Didn’t think this mb7 could do that so quickly.
     
  8. cilyjr

    cilyjr Active Member R2R Supporter Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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  9. Second Shot

    Second Shot Active Member

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    It’s a powder so I wouldn’t think so.
     
  10. terri_ann

    terri_ann Well-Known Member

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    Interesting discussion and I hope it will continue. Although I haven't read a lot of published articles, there does seem to be some definite correlations of which bacterias are present in the diseased corals. I also find it interesting that many times I have heard hobbyists say that stn can be seen when the acro is starved. I'm wondering how we/hobbyist can determine if the stn is caused by starvation or the bad bacteria...if we think starvation and then increase feedings, the amount of time waiting to see 'if' the increase is helping, could possibly be a 'too late' scenerio to recognize it was bacterial?
     
  11. cilyjr

    cilyjr Active Member R2R Supporter Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    I have been regularly dosing some form of bacterial supplement for several months now. I started in Oct with mb7 and now use a rotation of different brands 1 each week.

    Previous to this I had a colony of A. valadia that would show signs of tissue necrosis at the base. As of early December I have yet to see any signs of an atm event. This is completely anecdotal and can by no means be used to draw a conclusion as there are other things I've changed but it is interesting.
     
  12. cilyjr

    cilyjr Active Member R2R Supporter Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    Since my last post I've had an A. Millipora stn. It was brought over from a friend's tank and was doing poorly to start with.

    I'm still using a few different bacterial supplements in rotation. Mostly bacter7 and tunze care bacter. Is it helping? I'm not sure but it makes me feel better.

    There are 2 products that claim to have an active anti vibrio agent.

    Dr tims eco balance states that they contain a strain of bacillus (which secrete an antibiotic protien) that has an effect on V. Shiloi.

    Tunze also claims to actively inhibit vibrio bacteria but does not provide an details on what in their product produces the effect.

    As of now there is nothing on the market that definitively states a bdellovibrio strain, which was my initial assumption.
     
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  13. 2una

    2una Active Member

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    Maybe not US side but there is also this one - this is the 2nd/3rd product i've seen that reads with the same theory(altho fish oriented).
     
  14. cilyjr

    cilyjr Active Member R2R Supporter Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks I'll explore this more
     
  15. 2una

    2una Active Member

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    Is also this one i know of
    https://www.seawayaqua.co.uk/_p/prd1/3914267651/arem-v---disease-preventative

    I had what i believe was a bad vibrio breakout a year ago & this one i believe worked at fighting it off.
    I'm talking multiple stn/rtn that would kill off 1 coral then move to another healthy one close by or if there was not one close by would appear somewhere else.Kinda ruled out elements with icp's & my nutrients weren't bottomed out either.
     
  16. cilyjr

    cilyjr Active Member R2R Supporter Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks. I wish someone would be more vocal about what's going in these products. I appreciate Dr. Tim's for doing that and will try that product next. It will be a few months before I'm ready to purchase a new bacteria product.
     
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