Best Fish to Cycle With

[mfrumkin]

We need to get beyond this voodoo concept that all fish based cycling is cruel.

Ammonia is toxic to fish in the same way that CO2 is toxic to humans. It’s all about the concentration in the water. So putting 1-2 small fish into a large enough volume of water is objectively not cruel to the fish, the same way that closing the door to your house is not cruel to your family and pets... assuming they are given proper space.

Those who are particularly concerned should consider adding a bacterial culture product or a piece of liverock from a trusted local reefer or LFS.

If the water volume is very small, maybe in a pico where keeping any fish will be a challenge, then okay fish based cycling may not be an option. However, paying retail price for bottled ammonia is... a tax on the willing? One could drop any small piece of food which will decompose, or just some small flakes of fish food every day, or even just pee in the tank to supply ammonia (not my first choice, but certainly budget friendly).

So the real question for @mfrumkin is what size tank?
Depending on the tank size, any reasonably hardy fish that the OP is willing to care for for the natural course of its life is fine.
Maybe consider choosing a fish which will not be particularly aggressive to future additions? Like a blenny who will also munch on some algae? Clowns are usually good but this is nano thread so maybe OP’s tank will not be big enough? Many Gobies are nice for nanos. Firefish could work but I can’t seem to keep them alive in my established tank for more than 3-6 months so I’m hesitant to recommend them. Some small basslets might work, as would some cardinals... that’s all I can think of trying off hand. Lots of character and color in that list. :)

Good luck and happy reefing

Thank you for your reply. The tank will be a waterbox aio 30.2. The water volume is 29.6gl. I WOULD do a fishless cycle, but the tank will be in my office, I travel for business a lot and I am too paranoid to trust my wife or daughter to dose the tank properly each day. I used Damsels for my 125 fowlr and had to trap them and remove them when they turned mean. Always happens. I HATE DAMSELS!! So I am looking for an alternative. I will be jump-starting the tank initially, live rock, live sand, Dr. Tim's, etc. and it will be 75% RFA and the rest zoa and shrooms. I am going to try and stick with fish that will do some maintenance and be peaceful. I had a 100gl aggressive fowlr and it was fun but not what I want for this tank.

I'm also wondering if I can take some live rock out of my big reef and fowlr tanks and add them to the new tank. I have created a number of stand alone rocks that I glued zoas and shrooms onto and I wanted to move some of them to the new tank eventually. Will that help to stabilize the tank quicker?

 

[mfrumkin]

The OP didn’t indicate that he knows or used this method. His one line question indicates he’s looking for other fish to cycle the tank. Using already cured live rock to avoid the initial cycle or lessen the initial cycle is certainly possible, but there’s absolutely nothing in his post indicating that is what he’s doing. How do you know he didn’t just set up a tank with dry rock and sand?



Again, this assumes that one is starting with already cycled, live rock to help process ammonia. Dead dry rock without bacteria is not going to process ammonia and it will build up. Most people don’t call this “cycling” a tank. It’s using already established, cycled live rock in a new tank to avoid or lessen the initial cycle. Also, you included only fish in your calculation. You didn’t include excess food that inevitably finds its way into the aquarium, which will increase ammonia significantly more than fish. How much will it increase ammonia? I don’t know. It’s your argument and it’s missed a critical issue.

This was my error for not providing complete information. Sorry. I posted late after a 7 hr. drive and was tired. Here is additional information: I currently have a 180gl reef and 125gl fowlr. Both tanks were cycled using fish, they were established between 10 and 15 years ago and I was not aware of fishless cycling. The new tank is a waterbox AIO 30.2 with 29.6gl. It will be used 75% for RFA and 25% Zoa/Mushroom. I travel for business frequently and I do not trust anyone else to test and dose the tank properly. I will be using live rock and Dr. Tim's to start. I do have plenty of live rock that I could relocate to the new tank if that is advisable. I have some "islands" that have been planted with zoa and mushroom frags that will eventually relocate to the new tank. This is all an experiment to me and a learning process. While I know how to take care of a larger tank, they seem more forgiving, it has been years since I had a saltwater nano.

 

[Paul Sands]

Anyways, I had fun reading and studying this. Learned a ton. And it's entirely possible my math is wrong or I've read the lit wrong, missed something etc. Feel free to correct me.

I think that’s likely that you missed something seeing as you are apparently researching this AFTER making a comment and therefore looking for information that helps prove your point instead of researching and looking for facts.

I’ve quarantined probably a few hundred clownfish. In a uncycled 20 gallon tank one or two of them has about a week before ammonia starts to get toxic and you have to start doing 50% or more water changes. I test a few times a day and use prime to help make the ammonia less toxic to fish. Did you ask if the OP if he understood the need for this?

Finally, the OP’s question was “best fish to cycle with?” He didn’t say “I’ve just set up my reef using cured live rock and I want to add my first fish. What do you suggest?” That would be an entirely different question and seems to be the one you are answering instead of answering the one he actually asked.

 

[bluprntguy]

This was my error for not providing complete information. Sorry. I posted late after a 7 hr. drive and was tired. Here is additional information: I currently have a 180gl reef and 125gl fowlr. Both tanks were cycled using fish, they were established between 10 and 15 years ago and I was not aware of fishless cycling. The new tank is a waterbox AIO 30.2 with 29.6gl. It will be used 75% for RFA and 25% Zoa/Mushroom. I travel for business frequently and I do not trust anyone else to test and dose the tank properly. I will be using live rock and Dr. Tim's to start. I do have plenty of live rock that I could relocate to the new tank if that is advisable. I have some "islands" that have been planted with zoa and mushroom frags that will eventually relocate to the new tank. This is all an experiment to me and a learning process. While I know how to take care of a larger tank, they seem more forgiving, it has been years since I had a saltwater nano.

Yes, ammonia will build up much faster in a small tank than in a large tank. If you are ordering Dr. Tim's bacteria, why not order some of his ammonia as well? If you are using live rock from other tanks, your new tank may not have a traditional initial cycle, but it may. I've had both things happen to me setting up nanos with live rock. One tank was fine, one tank had a small cycle.

I'd suggest setting up the tank using live rock. Dose the Dr. Tim's bacteria. Then dose the Dr. Tim's ammonia per the directions. This brings up your ammonia to 2ppm. Test the water and see how long it takes the aquarium to process the ammonia. If it takes a few days or less to get back down to zero ammonia, your aquarium is ready to process ammonia from fish and feeding and you can add your first fish. This avoids potentially subjecting fish to ammonia spikes.

It seems like you'd want to be sure the tank is set up correctly if you are going to be away for long periods and don't trust anyone to maintain it.

 

[Dr. Reef]

A hardy fish like damsel or clownfish can handle ammonia up to 0.6ppm without ill effects.
My recommendation will be to do fishless cycle or you can do fish with bacteria in a bottle.

 

[Lasse]

I'm also wondering if I can take some live rock out of my big reef and fowlr tanks and add them to the new tank. I have created a number of stand alone rocks that I glued zoas and shrooms onto and I wanted to move some of them to the new tank eventually. Will that help to stabilize the tank quicker?

IMO - it will work well and it contains much of the microbes you need for the cycle. You can also take some sand from your main aquaria and shake in a bottle - put it in the refrigator and pur in some every day. But do not overfeed the fish.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

@Smarkow Thank you for the articles - good to have some old common sense ( - oh -my fault - I ment science) in the discussion :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Coastie Reefer]

Thank you for your reply. The tank will be a waterbox aio 30.2. The water volume is 29.6gl. I WOULD do a fishless cycle, but the tank will be in my office, I travel for business a lot and I am too paranoid to trust my wife or daughter to dose the tank properly each day. I used Damsels for my 125 fowlr and had to trap them and remove them when they turned mean. Always happens. I HATE DAMSELS!! So I am looking for an alternative. I will be jump-starting the tank initially, live rock, live sand, Dr. Tim's, etc. and it will be 75% RFA and the rest zoa and shrooms. I am going to try and stick with fish that will do some maintenance and be peaceful. I had a 100gl aggressive fowlr and it was fun but not what I want for this tank.

I'm also wondering if I can take some live rock out of my big reef and fowlr tanks and add them to the new tank. I have created a number of stand alone rocks that I glued zoas and shrooms onto and I wanted to move some of them to the new tank eventually. Will that help to stabilize the tank quicker?

Toss in a single raw shrimp... let it decay till it's gone. No need to dose bacteria as it will populate the tank on it's own. Takes a little time, anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 weeks, but it's cheap, simple, and fishless.

A simple ATI test kit can tell you when you're done, and anyone that can count to 10 can use an ATI test kit.

just my $0.02

 

[sfin52]

Nice. I love that you were on point and did not pre-judge like the rest of us. Made me think a bit about my answer above. I used Mollies for freshwater several times in the past and they always worked well.

Ive used clowns in my tanks. 75g two -3 inches of fish. I can be done with out ammonia issues. Look at all the hospital tanks that do it. Throw an ammonia badge and and test. Fish cycle in a DT would be less stressful than a qt tank depending on circumstances. Size of tank, size of fish and what not.
A fish cycle should be reevaluated.

 

[BeejReef]

We need to get beyond this voodoo concept that all fish based cycling is cruel.

Ammonia is toxic to fish in the same way that CO2 is toxic to humans. It’s all about the concentration in the water. So putting 1-2 small fish into a large enough volume of water is objectively not cruel to the fish, the same way that closing the door to your house is not cruel to your family and pets... assuming they are given proper space.

Those who are particularly concerned should consider adding a bacterial culture product or a piece of liverock from a trusted local reefer or LFS.

If the water volume is very small, maybe in a pico where keeping any fish will be a challenge, then okay fish based cycling may not be an option. However, paying retail price for bottled ammonia is... a tax on the willing? One could drop any small piece of food which will decompose, or just some small flakes of fish food every day, or even just pee in the tank to supply ammonia (not my first choice, but certainly budget friendly).

So the real question for @mfrumkin is what size tank?
Depending on the tank size, any reasonably hardy fish that the OP is willing to care for for the natural course of its life is fine.
Maybe consider choosing a fish which will not be particularly aggressive to future additions? Like a blenny who will also munch on some algae? Clowns are usually good but this is nano thread so maybe OP’s tank will not be big enough? Many Gobies are nice for nanos. Firefish could work but I can’t seem to keep them alive in my established tank for more than 3-6 months so I’m hesitant to recommend them. Some small basslets might work, as would some cardinals... that’s all I can think of trying off hand. Lots of character and color in that list. :)

Good luck and happy reefing

That's probably a fair point. Good analogy between ammonia and "closing the doors."
It's also probably true that the second and third fish added to a "cycled" tank also probably endure very mild ammonia spikes as the tank ramps up to accept the added load.

To my mind (possibly not to all) cycling with a fish would have been a way to have a fish faster, which is what I think drives a lot of the discussion. Staring at an empty tank is hard.
Given an acceptably ample water volume to allow an un-cruel fish cycle, I wonder if it wouldn't actually be slower? If you can't dose or overfeed, I'd think one damsel or clown would take a long time to get a 160g cycled.

 

[Scubafrog]

Fritz-Zyme Turbo Start and Clown Fish. When using live sand and dry rock.

 

[MnFish1]

Ammonia is extremely toxic for fish and while a damsel can survive the ordeal better than other fish, you are subjecting it to torture. I agree with others. Get Dr Tim’s ammonia. Or a piece of shrimp. Live rock also works (worked for me).

I suggest you're wrong - not that ammonia at any concentration shoudl be tolerated - but that its not possible to add fish and bacteria immediately. If this is done CORRECTLY - there is no ammonia to be worried about.... OR?

The OP didn’t indicate that he knows or used this method. His one line question indicates he’s looking for other fish to cycle the tank. Using already cured live rock to avoid the initial cycle or lessen the initial cycle is certainly possible, but there’s absolutely nothing in his post indicating that is what he’s doing. How do you know he didn’t just set up a tank with dry rock and sand?



Again, this assumes that one is starting with already cycled, live rock to help process ammonia. Dead dry rock without bacteria is not going to process ammonia and it will build up. Most people don’t call this “cycling” a tank. It’s using already established, cycled live rock in a new tank to avoid or lessen the initial cycle. Also, you included only fish in your calculation. You didn’t include excess food that inevitably finds its way into the aquarium, which will increase ammonia significantly more than fish. How much will it increase ammonia? I don’t know. It’s your argument and it’s missed a critical issue.

And - its completely easy to put rock, sand in a tank and add the appropriate bacteria and a small fish load. Its not cruel, its not mean, its not old fashioned. Its common sense IMHO

 

[Paul Sands]

I suggest you're wrong - not that ammonia at any concentration shoudl be tolerated - but that its not possible to add fish and bacteria immediately. If this is done CORRECTLY - there is no ammonia to be worried about.... OR?


And - its completely easy to put rock, sand in a tank and add the appropriate bacteria and a small fish load. Its not cruel, its not mean, its not old fashioned. Its common sense IMHO

Given the scientific tests done on this very board a few months ago, the bacteria in a bottle is more likely to misfire than to successfully establish bacteria and start processing ammonia immediately.

I honestly have no idea what your point is other than just to argue. It takes a week and less than $3 of ammonia to do this without a fish and insure the bacteria have successfully colonized hard surfaces. You really just can’t wait that long to put a fish in your tank? What exactly are you gaining by using a live fish?

 

[MnFish1]

Given the scientific tests done on this very board a few months ago, the bacteria in a bottle is more likely to misfire than to successfully establish bacteria and start processing ammonia immediately.

I honestly have no idea what your point is other than just to argue. It takes a week and less than $3 of ammonia to do this without a fish and insure the bacteria have successfully colonized hard surfaces. You really just can’t wait that long to put a fish in your tank? What exactly are you gaining by using a live fish?

Well - the results of the experiment on the other thread - which I helped design show something different. The test using fish has not yet been done - but is still being designed. So I think you're incorrect. You must not be reading the threads where people are cycling tanks for weeks/months. I have never seen one that says it takes a week and less than $3 of ammonia. Please direct me there......

BTW the tests done on R2R over the last several months showed that Fritz 900 reduced ammonia over a day or 2 to 0. There was NO CHANGE in the control tank (i.e. ammonia and nothing else) in 7 days. It showed that others worked better with lower initial ammonia only levels. It showed that others - if a bit of fish food was added worked almost as well as the Fritz 900.

The key to these experiments was that they started with high levels of ammonia - and waited for them to fall. If you start at 0 ammonia - and bacteria - the ammonia level should never increase to the point where its a problem (which is the goal). No one wants to be cruel to a fish.

Paul - I would suggest that you have a more open mind... to new ideas - rather than just arguing the same old things time after time after time. But - in either case - good luck.

 

[ScottR]

I suggest you're wrong - not that ammonia at any concentration shoudl be tolerated - but that its not possible to add fish and bacteria immediately. If this is done CORRECTLY - there is no ammonia to be worried about.... OR?


And - its completely easy to put rock, sand in a tank and add the appropriate bacteria and a small fish load. Its not cruel, its not mean, its not old fashioned. Its common sense IMHO

I see. I didn’t know you could add fish and bacteria same day. Never tried. I guess I have things to learn. Can you put a tang and a bottle of bacteria in on day one?

 

[brandon429]

I agree w Dr Reef above.
nowadays its easy to use quick fish without torturing them, todays bottle bac handles the ammonia issue without a problem.
The issue is violating fallow/ttm/disease prevention protocols.

 

[MnFish1]

I see. I didn’t know you could add fish and bacteria same day. Never tried. I guess I have things to learn. Can you put a tang and a bottle of bacteria in on day one?

Yes.... I have.... Judging by the tests here - using Fritz Turbo 900 - I always used stability - set up a new tank (out of necessity - old one broke) - using that method. No problems..

 

[MnFish1]

Toss in a single raw shrimp... let it decay till it's gone. No need to dose bacteria as it will populate the tank on it's own. Takes a little time, anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 weeks, but it's cheap, simple, and fishless.

A simple ATI test kit can tell you when you're done, and anyone that can count to 10 can use an ATI test kit.

just my $0.02

But it takes 3-6 weeks or wasted time.... IMHO

 

[DSC reef]

Well - the results of the experiment on the other thread - which I helped design show something different. The test using fish has not yet been done - but is still being designed. So I think you're incorrect. You must not be reading the threads where people are cycling tanks for weeks/months. I have never seen one that says it takes a week and less than $3 of ammonia. Please direct me there......

BTW the tests done on R2R over the last several months showed that Fritz 900 reduced ammonia over a day or 2 to 0. There was NO CHANGE in the control tank (i.e. ammonia and nothing else) in 7 days. It showed that others worked better with lower initial ammonia only levels. It showed that others - if a bit of fish food was added worked almost as well as the Fritz 900.

The key to these experiments was that they started with high levels of ammonia - and waited for them to fall. If you start at 0 ammonia - and bacteria - the ammonia level should never increase to the point where its a problem (which is the goal). No one wants to be cruel to a fish.

Paul - I would suggest that you have a more open mind... to new ideas - rather than just arguing the same old things time after time after time. But - in either case - good luck.

Well said. I was surprised to see how the different bacterias worked.

 

[ScottR]

@MnFish1 - I see you referenced an older thread. Perhaps you can send the link? I’m interested to see.