BIG AND LOUD CONTROLLER COMPARISON THREAD

[Terence]

I love what you DIY guys have done, but remember, time is not free. The same goes for systems that (in order to access your aquarium info and get alerts) still require you to do things like port forwarding and email server setup. While these are not tough for the super-tech-person, they are basically a non-starter for the average aquarist.

Price comparisons are often very misleading. One must make sure they are making apples to apples comparisons. For instance, the ReefAngel was quoted above. Well, to get the hardware even close to the current Apex (sans power monitoring, four switch inputs, calibration fluids, etc.) you can see that it is already $141 more than the Apex ($799.95). True, you could get by with less, but that is why the Apex Classic is still out there at $550 and the Apex Jr. at $240.

 

[Terence]

And, BTW, I do have a personal experience with the ReefAngel and the DA ReefKeeper. Before I was employed by Neptune Systems. In fact, I even wrote an honest and unbiased review of the product (something that is hard to find in the industry). https://reefs.com/2012/02/29/reefangel-a-controller-made-for-the-diy-reefkeeper/

I have used the GHL product as well. Solid hardware for sure. I even mention it as a viable option in my talks I still give even though I am Neptune Systems employee and advocate.

 

[TheEngineer]

I don't think you need to be defending your product here. The point, at least as I understand it, of the thread is for people to discuss why they chose one over the other. You providing your opinion on your own product doesn't really advance that, in my opinion. Obviously you like your own stuff and think it is better than the others out there I would like to hear what you've experienced with other products though. Obviously you guys study your competition. I'd just like to hear it phrased about the technology or the feature, not as what you already do or offer in your product.

As far as DIY time goes, of course there's a cost! Do you know what I charge myself per hour? I yell every time I open the bill In all honesty though, that cost is part of enjoying multiple hobbies at once for me. As a DIY person, a system like the Reef Angel gives me unfettered access to do anything I want. They do follow a model similar to others out there though which requires you to buy modules to expand your system. I'm fine with the concept, but not the cost generally. Things like opening up ports or setting up email also fall in line with the DIY/more control mentality. If it is on my network, it only talks or is spoken to when I want and by who I want.

I'm surprised no one has come on here and said they just use old school timers. I know several people who still run that way and they have amazingly successful tanks.

 

[TheEngineer]

Also, just to be clear you double bought things for the Reef Angel setup you showed. Don't overspend! The expansion modules include the sensors and the controller includes the relay box, pH probe and temp sensor. So the setup you built is $686, or $114 less than the Apex.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I don't think you need to be defending your product here. The point, at least as I understand it, of the thread is for people to discuss why they chose one over the other. You providing your opinion on your own product doesn't really advance that, in my opinion. Obviously you like your own stuff and think it is better than the others out there

As the OP, I'm going to disagree with this. I appreciate @Terence's perspective and welcome his input into this conversation. He knows the comparison he's done in the market. He's got tons of experience with this technology. He's aware of the features his customers appreciate and what things are being looked for by many. I would also welcome input from others in the industry (employees from GHL, DA, Puratek, or any others that want to weigh in). Let's keep this conversation open to anyone who wants to join in comparing products.

 

[TheEngineer]

As the OP, I'm going to disagree with this. I appreciate @Terence's perspective and welcome his input into this conversation. He knows the comparison he's done in the market. He's got tons of experience with this technology. He's aware of the features his customers appreciate and what things are being looked for by many. I would also welcome input from others in the industry (employees from GHL, DA, Puratek, or any others that want to weigh in). Let's keep this conversation open to anyone who wants to join in comparing products.

My point was just that someone who sells a product is obviously going to say their product is better. I'm not trying to stop him from adding his perspective, rather I'd rather hear his perspective on the technologies. Are reps from those other companies on the forum to make the same pitch for their product? If so, then definitely let's get them in here!

Obviously you guys study your competition. I'd just like to hear it phrased about the technology or the feature, not as what you already do or offer in your product.

 

[morpheas]

@Rob Lion you have done a lot of work on software design/setup and hardware integration. Have you made any of this open source? I am sure a lot of people would give the DYI approach a go if they could get a leg up/build on something that far ahead. I know myself would. I'm a software engineer by trade and I definitely don't mind building stuff but when I think about what I want/have to do it seems like a mountain and at the end and because also of what @Terence said (time is money) I decided to go with Neptune's apex (which I'm really happy with BTW). But if there was something out there to put me so far ahead on the race I would definitely consider DIY'ing it. I know there have been some DIY controllers out there but I'm not aware of any that follows the principle of open hardware/software solution.

I know of course that that would take time out of your busy schedule as well that's why I'm asking if you've already done it (based it off of something that's already out there) or would consider doing it.

 

[Rob Lion]

I love what you DIY guys have done, but remember, time is not free.

You missed the point @Terence , you are correct that our time isn't free, but this is our hobby.... we are happy to spend time with our hobby, and doing the DIY stuff, whatever it is, is not time that costs us money, it is time we spend enjoying our hobby even more. Doing DIY for our tanks is just an extension to that hobby.

still require you to do things like port forwarding and email server setup. While these are not tough for the super-tech-person, they are basically a non-starter for the average aquarist.

sorry ... you are behind the times now, doing these things are real simple, people want to make it sound hard so they can be paid as "consultants" to do them, but it's basically very simple, and free to use too, and with the continued development of technology like Internet of Things etc, it is literally child's play!

And if anything is preceived hard to do, we have great forums like this to help others and share knowledge.

Raspberry Pi model 3 (comes with USB, bluetooth and Wifi) $40
7" touch screen $60
SD card $8
operating system $0
breakout board, misc cables and bits and pieces $90
4 socket RF controlled bars x 2 (8 sockets) + Pi RF transiever $100
everything else I already own, seneye reef, Jebao wavemakers, AI prime lights, dc pumps, dosing pumps etc...
total spend so far is just $300.... and I can use my Pi for other things too, not just my aquarium, if i really want to, i could have it control my home heating and lighting too....

IF Neptune had a CHEAP starter kit, I would have definitely gone down that route... but here in the UK, the 2016 silver /gold start up boxes cost £800, that's equivalent to about $1,000 .... and that's the start up cost!.and add on the cost of the Jebao links etc..... sorry, that's way too high for me. But you have a lovely product.

 

[Rob Lion]

Have you made any of this open source?

there is a ton of open source out there, search GITHUB to find it.... when I am completed (if ever) I will definately open source it.

All aquariums system are great, I am not knocking them, i'm just responding to a previous poster that DIY is an alternative.

 

[jeffrey holloway]

Even though I am a Neptune user, I would also welcome the opinion of other manufactures. I think its a perfect forum for them to explain why someone should switch to there products. It wasn't Neptune that convinced me to by there product, but a comparison video on BRS is what sold me. So lets hear from you guys.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Even though I am a Neptune user, I would also welcome the opinion of other manufactures. I think its a perfect forum for them to explain why someone should switch to there products. It wasn't Neptune that convinced me to by there product, but a comparison video on BRS is what sold me. So lets hear from you guys.

Could you post that video? That would be a cool addition to the discussion I think.

By the way, if anyone knows some of the other guys in the controller industry, feel free to invite them to the conversation. Great discussion so far IMHO. Thanks for all the input, everyone!!

 

[reefwiser]

I could have built a controller out of PLC units I don't use anymore but I didn't I wanted to work with units that other hobbyist have and use. Better for me to understand their issues and help them if possible. I do DIY for a living so when I am home I don't do it because it's too much like work any more. Back 30 years ago we didn't have companies making anything useful for the reef aquarium hobby. I made powerhead sweep units like the sea sweeps and on and off timers for my powerheads. I had a PLC controlling pumps and circuits. But as companies got into the controller space of the hobby I enjoyed see how they developed their systems. Competing companies in the controller space is a good thing for all involved.

 

[jeffrey holloway]

"mdbannister" Sorry I'not skill enough to cut and paste those videos. My daughter is not here right now she does those things for me. But if you can they are on the BRS site under videos "52 weeks of reefing" weeks 43 thru 47.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

"mdbannister" Sorry I'not skill enough to cut and paste those videos. My daughter is not here right now she does those things for me. But if you can they are on the BRS site under videos "52 weeks of reefing" weeks 43 thru 47.

Got them! Thanks!

Here they are (weeks 43, 44, 45, and 47...I don't consider the Seneye a controller, so I left it out.):

I do think it's worth mentioning that while BRS does compare several (3?) major players which is extremely helpful, there are at least 4-5 controllers they do NOT look at including GHL which is one of the big names in the controller market (as you can see by the content of this thread). Other players not addressed are Puratek, Reef Angel, and the DA Archon controller (DA's newest controller).

In the first video, here there's a whole lot about what controllers in general will do, so if you want to skip to comparison talk, jump to the 6:41 time mark.

 

[cobraz]

Neptune Apex vs Seneye

This is just a quicky for those that might consider the Seneye...

Neptune Apex - I have owned the oldest ones when they first came out ..thru the color changes ..I currently have a Classic white label and a Lite version white label..I have the PM1 and Wmx mods as well. There is absolutely nothing you can't do...on the Apex ( no the wife is not controllable..) so almost everything. From pumps, lights, doser, etc..others have commented on them.

Now the Seneye on the other hand...
Pro's: The Reef Version has the PAR meter for $150 on sale is great and works really well.
Con's: It's useless otherwise and this is why....
1.) You have to buy slides and change them every 30 days..the cost does not justify what it does.. PH, Am, Oxygen, Temp. Slides are $11.00 each.
2.) To make it communicate you need a computer and/or a Web server hub which costs more money. $179 non-wireless and about $240 wireless.
3.) You can direct connect using usb to laptop but that's a pain or possible issue dealing with saltwater close by.

I own both and just use the Seneye as a portable par meter...which on it's own has value to me.

If there is a way to hit one command to turn off all pumps for cleaning with the Apex that would be awesome... I assume someone took the feeding command and adjusted it somehow.

 

[Terence]

Also, just to be clear you double bought things for the Reef Angel setup you showed. Don't overspend! The expansion modules include the sensors and the controller includes the relay box, pH probe and temp sensor. So the setup you built is $686, or $114 less than the Apex.

Sorry, that was totally unintentional on my part. I was just going in like the average consumer and hitting their shop and buying what I thought I needed.

That said, I did take a closer look. Since the base ReefAngel only has two switch inputs (I/O) and two dimming ports (but they are able to be PWM as well so that is nice and not available in the Apex for the few that might need that), you would have to spend about $200 more in expansion modules to get the same amount of dimming/varspd ports as the Apex (4) and also buy their I/O expansion to get six more switch inputs. So it still comes out almost $900 for the same gear on the surface. However, customers making the comparison should note that the new Apex now comes standard with double junction ORP and pH probes.

While I appreciate the idea of DIY, and I am super impressed with what many out there have done, this is just not a viable alternative for the masses. And, a wise friend taught me a saying that I love "I can always go and make more money, I cannot make more time". This is very much true and, just my opinion, should be a big part of someone's decision in buying a product in this space.

Of course I am going to have a bias. I think I am not unique in that respect when it comes to those that have and will post here. That said, I think I can still be objective and bring some facts to the discussion. What I would really like to see is completeness and lack of bias in the reefkeeping "press".

I would love for someone impartial to film two people, that have less than one year in the hobby, go through the buying experience to end up with one each of the two of the top controllers out there, do an unboxing, use what comes to delivered to them, and set them up. No outside influence. Have them set up the common, basic things most all want to do. Nothing too complex. Main pump, skimmer, heater, maybe a tunze pump, Kessil 360 light, two Vortechs, etc. Have them do the cloud access set up and all. Have them use the app, the alerts, the data, the things we buy it for. This would really valuable insight to consumers IMO.

We absolutely welcome more players in this space - especially if they raise the bar. We very much want people to realize that having the insurance provided by safety stops and alerts on your reef greatly increases your likelihood for long term success.

I like these kinds of open discussions.

 

[TheEngineer]

What I would really like to see is completeness and lack of bias in the reefkeeping "press".

Amen!

And in the event it wasn't clear, I think you guys make an awesome product. Just wasn't the product for me at the time I bought the RA. That said, if you want to have me as the winner of the contest for your controller I will happily welcome it to my reef life

 

[d2mini]

If there is a way to hit one command to turn off all pumps for cleaning with the Apex that would be awesome... I assume someone took the feeding command and adjusted it somehow.

I would assume Apex has it... with GHL it's called Feed Mode.
Just assign whatever socket you want to turn off for feedmode and set the time.
Enter feed mode and it will shut down all assigned items and automatically start back up in the specified time.
Some people even get a little fancy and have the skimmer come back on much later to avoid overflows if theirs is sensitive to feeding.
There's also maintenance modes. Like if you need to shut your skimmer down for cleaning. Click the button instead of reaching in the stand and trying to unplug it. When you are done, hit the button again to turn maintenance mode off which turns the skimmer back on.
There are several feed modes and maintenance modes so you can have several set up and ready to go with different options.
Even my Mitras LED light has 4 maintenance modes I can set up. I set one up to a really white spectrum to make taking photos with good white balance really quick and easy.

 

[Terence]

I would assume Apex has it... with GHL it's called Feed Mode.
Just assign whatever socket you want to turn off for feedmode and set the time.
Enter feed mode and it will shut down all assigned items and automatically start back up in the specified time.
Some people even get a little fancy and have the skimmer come back on much later to avoid overflows if theirs is sensitive to feeding.
There's also maintenance modes. Like if you need to shut your skimmer down for cleaning. Click the button instead of reaching in the stand and trying to unplug it. When you are done, hit the button again to turn maintenance mode off which turns the skimmer back on.
There are several feed modes and maintenance modes so you can have several set up and ready to go with different options.
Even my Mitras LED light has 4 maintenance modes I can set up. I set one up to a really white spectrum to make taking photos with good white balance really quick and easy.

Absolutely, and on the Apex (don't know for sure on others) it is not just for feeding or shutting things off. You can have an entire sequence of things happen based on that press. As an example, I know people that like to have more than one "viewing mode" for their tank. Sometimes they have a party after the normal light cycle, or sometimes they want to view the tank in a different lighting mode along with the pumps all turned off or turned down so they can do things like top down shots. With the feed modes, the nice thing is that everything goes back to "normal" after a set period of time. So, you could have party-mode that kicks on the lights the way you like them, but in four hours goes back to normal. It is very powerful. Also, in my aquarium, feed mode doesn't turn my pump off, it just turns it down to where it is barely coming out of the pipe since I have an variable speed Abyzz (ApexReady) return pump.

 

[morpheas]

What I have found invaluable on the Apex is the virtual modules. Having those greatly expand the versatility of programming. I am not sure if other controllers have that but I would not be surprised if they did since it's a great feature.

I said that to say this. I have implemented something similar to feed mode for maintenance (which many many have done out there). With a press of an ON-OFF button I can put the tank on maintenance mode for my water change. The return pump, heater, wave makers, skimmer, growth light and reactor turn off. My cabinet lights turn on. When I'm done and I press the same button everything springs back to life, thus eliminating the risk of forgetting to turn of the heater or pumps or something.

Another thing I would like to mention is this. Yes, the controller has to be able to do simple things in a simple manner right out of the box. But, in my opinion, the controller gains points in my eyes with what happens when you try to do something out of the norm or what it was designed to do. An example is what a lot of us have done with the Jebao wave makers. The Apex does not support the nice random/reefcrest etc modes through the wizards for the VDMs' ports (simply because it doesn't really know what goes there) like it does for the Vortech (which has a special module anyway). But, with the versatility that the controller offers with the virtual modules, we create virtual power bars with virtual outlets and through a series of logical time dependent on/offs we can create random waves. Yes, it's a little complicated but the controller's abilities have been expanded although it has not been designed to do so.

Another example of versatility (especially for the code side that a lot of people find as negative). My Radion is on the WXM module. I set up my profile with on/off rampings, colors throughout the day etc. I like my reef to be lit when I am home from work rather than when I am away so the light schedule is 10AM to 10PM. On the weekends though, I might wake up early and might want to have my reef turn on (low blues or whites etc). So, once I set my program up with the GUI wizard I then switched to advanced mode and added a couple of lines of code at the end that pretty much say "if virtual outlet BLUES is on then set the light profile to LOW_BLUE" or "if virtual outlet WHITES is on then set the light profile to LOW_WHITE". In that way, all I have to do is log in to fusion, flip the virtual switch and that overrides the behavior of my lights and schedule. What I was even more pleasantly surprised to find out is that once I put those lines of code in the advanced mode and then saved and switched back to the wizard and made a couple of changes the wizard did not override my custom code.

I am sure that some or all of the features I describe above are available with some or all the controllers out there. I simply have no experience to judge spherically (and probably that's the reason that @mdbannister has posted this thread). But, these things are what I looked for, when on the market for a controller, and have made me choose Apex.

PS: Since we have @Terence here, I'm sure it has been voiced before but expanding the language to be able to take multiple logic operations in an IF statement would greatly enhance the usability and experience (on the GUI you could have nice AJAX plus signs that bring extra lines for conditions, yummy!). I can see how the consecutive statements can confuse people.

PPS: Also, on the wishlist subject, it would also be nice (and I'm not sure if Neptune has something like that in mind) to open up an API for your aquabus connection (coupled with a fusion support) so anyone could make a module that talks to the Apex. I know I would! Then talk about having something that no one else has!