Bolus dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

a lot of debate here, but why people just not try and take bicarbonate and measure what happens and post the grah instead of speaking without trying? I was also very skeptical at first as you can see in my first posts and the fauna marin explanation may not be able to explain it, but it definitely does something to the tank and corals like it.

I have done it, and they stated it only happens the FM way in a reef tank. That’s where the imaginary invisible crystal theory came from by FM.

Have you added bicarbonate and looked at the pH effects?

 

[Garf]

Reefbums chart seemed to show a little of the tabletop effect at the start. This looks like it changed to a more reasonable consumption trend after a few days. In my eyes this shows either adaption or a negative effect to the under dosing of Alk, which is not surprising.

 

[BeanAnimal]

He not shows corals... but how the PH acts when dosing the KH in real time. It is very interesting and shows the effect not come from the light. You can't be taken serious if you speak about something you did even not watch. And a lot of debate here, but why people just not try and take bicarbonate and measure what happens and post the grah instead of speaking without trying? I was also very skeptical at first as you can see in my first posts and the fauna marin explanation may not be able to explain it, but it definitely does something to the tank and corals like it.

I don't take anything that Doug says as credible. It is my opinion that he simply parrots whatever Claude says, and ad-libs here and there to make himself sound profound. That may or may not be true, but the man-child type responses to critical comments and stunts like subliminal messages in videos have left me who very little respect for him or anything he has to say.

As for reality vs the explained science, sure I am open to the effect being real if it is repeatable in controlled tests, but that doesn't make Claude's fantastical magic crystals, or any of his other "science" true.

 

[Garf]

I don't take anything that Doug says as credible. It is my opinion that he simply parrots whatever Claude says, and ad-libs here and there to make himself sound profound. That may or may not be true, but the man-child type responses to critical comments and stunts like subliminal messages in videos have left me who very little respect for him or anything he has to say.

As for reality vs the explained science, sure I am open to the effect being real if it is repeatable in controlled tests, but that doesn't make Claude's fantastical magic crystals, or any of his other "science" true.

Doug put a new vid out recently. Jeez he looks fed up. I think he states he's been working on the bolus method for four years but I can't even be bothered to check. Numbers don't seem to be their strong point.

 

[Garf]

Using reefbums charting, can anyone see an overall pH increase? Sure there's a higher peak due to increased alk but also a lower low. From Google land, and experience,

calcareous algae really struggles at low nightly pH due to it basically dissolving more than it can deposit. Is this good?

 

[rtparty]

TM Original Balling is 3 part system where the C portion is there to provide ionic balance.

Part C is magnesium and potassium. That’s it. Explains why I never needed to dose either on my old system.

Not a knock on TM in any way but they really should be forthcoming with that info. It isn’t simply “NaCl” free salt as they claim. It contains no trace elements.

 

[spsick]

Part C is magnesium and potassium. That’s it. Explains why I never needed to dose either on my old system.

Not a knock on TM in any way but they really should be forthcoming with that info. It isn’t simply “NaCl” free salt as they claim. It contains no trace elements.

Wait what? Is there documentation of this? My understanding is it’s purpose is to balance out the chloride additions with 2 part.

 

[areefer01]

Part C is magnesium and potassium. That’s it. Explains why I never needed to dose either on my old system.

 

[rtparty]

Wait what? Is there documentation of this? My understanding is it’s purpose is to balance out the chloride additions with 2 part.

Right in their own documentation. Areefer posted it.

Shows the magnesium and potassium concentration for the mix. It’s almost all magnesium sulfate and some potassium. Not sure if the potassium is potassium sulfate or what.

If it isn’t just those two, why not list the ingredients and concentrations of everything else in it? Lou said it contains all 70 trace elements of seawater. Where are the levels and concentrations of these? Do they know them or just rely on impurities for most of them?

 

[rishma]

Part C is magnesium and potassium. That’s it. Explains why I never needed to dose either on my old system.

Not a knock on TM in any way but they really should be forthcoming with that info. It isn’t simply “NaCl” free salt as they claim. It contains no trace elements.

I don’t feel bad sidetracking my least favorite thread in this forum :)

I thought Part C helped offset the salinity rise from 2 part. Why didn’t you need to dose it?

 

[rtparty]

I don’t feel bad sidetracking my least favorite thread in this forum :)

I thought Part C helped offset the salinity rise from 2 part. Why didn’t you need to dose it?

I dosed Part C daily. My magnesium always stayed 1400ppm or higher and potassium always came back around 400ppm or higher on any ICP test.

I never looked closely at the Part C ingredients until just recently. I was dosing Mg and K daily because of the Part C. I figured it was weekly water changes with a higher Mg salt keeping it elevated. Seems that 200ml a day of Part C was likely what kept my Mg and K in check.

Again, absolutely no knock on TM or the Balling method. I would use it again in a heartbeat if my new system had room. I recommend it all the time.

I could be missing something though. Maybe Part C does contain 70 elements. I’d like to know the levels of each they add and that should be listed on the ingredient label.

 

[spsick]

Right in their own documentation. Areefer posted it.

Shows the magnesium and potassium concentration for the mix. It’s almost all magnesium sulfate and some potassium. Not sure if the potassium is potassium sulfate or what.

If it isn’t just those two, why not list the ingredients and concentrations of everything else in it? Lou said it contains all 70 trace elements of seawater. Where are the levels and concentrations of these? Do they know them or just rely on impurities for most of them?

Fascinating. Usually they are pretty straight forward and upfront with their offerings.

 

[rishma]

I dosed Part C daily. My magnesium always stayed 1400ppm or higher and potassium always came back around 400ppm or higher on any ICP test.

I never looked closely at the Part C ingredients until just recently. I was dosing Mg and K daily. I figured it was weekly water changes with a higher Mg salt keeping it elevated. Seems that 200ml a day of Part C was likely what kept my Mg and K in check.

Again, absolutely no knock on TM or the Balling method. I would use it again in a heartbeat if my new system had room. I recommend it all the time.

I could be missing something though. Maybe Part C does contain 70 elements. I’d like to know the levels of each they add and that should be listed on the ingredient label.

Ya, I didn’t know about the trace element claim I just thought it was a salinity thing. In my 2 part days I didn’t use it but figure I will in the future when I use 2 part again.

 

[Pod_01]

Part C is magnesium and potassium. That’s it. Explains why I never needed to dose either on my old system.

Not a knock on TM in any way but they really should be forthcoming with that info. It isn’t simply “NaCl” free salt as they claim. It contains no trace elements.

Randy did explain this in his articles,

How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters​

(Not sure how to provide link)

The way I understand it, and it may be wrong is that there is extra Mg and K to account for consumption.
When corals create the stony structure they sometimes use Mg and K.

There is also the sodium chloride free salt to maintain ionic balance. So past C is made out of sodium free salt and extra Mg and K.

General consumption is:
Alk 2.8 dKH
Calcium 18-20 ppm
Magnesium 0-2 ppm

Hopefully Randy will chime in and explain it better.

 

[rtparty]

Randy did explain this in his articles,

How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters​

(Not sure how to provide link)

The way I understand it, and it may be wrong is that there is extra Mg and K to account for consumption.
When corals create the stony structure they sometimes use Mg and K.

There is also the sodium chloride free salt to maintain ionic balance. So past C is made out of sodium free salt and extra Mg and K.

General consumption is:
Alk 2.8 dKH
Calcium 18-20 ppm
Magnesium 0-2 ppm

Hopefully Randy will chime in and explain it better.

Randy has explained Part C and I’ve read all that. It’s mostly magnesium sulfate and some potassium.

Lou from TM claims there are ALL 70 trace elements from seawater in it as well. I find that claim hard to believe but if true, they should clearly state that in their label IMO.

Ingredient lists matter IMO and we, as the hobby, should be pushing every manufacturer to clearly label what we are adding. This fits right into the FM claims and them trying to hide “secret” ingredients

 

[Imrahilwjz]

I never seen this idea mentioned. I don’t see the logic of wanting to do this, nor do I agree with the idea that one could not use other methods.

[edit: this next section was added on 11/13/2024, copied from page 78 of this long thread, for folks just getting here to read it, so they perhaps need not wade through hundreds and hundreds of posts to at least see my personal opinion after very lengthy discussion and consideration and testing of certain concepts].

Bolus dosing

What fear mongering am I falling for? am I just too illiterate to understand? Are you saying that Mr. Paletta is conspiring with FM to fool us all? I did not mean to offend you or any reefer. My comment was in response to this: If these people really think dosing alkalinity will have...

www.reef2reef.com

Since many people often do not want to read 78 pages of discussion here, I'll summarize my thoughts again.

1. I have no doubt that operating a reef tank using the "Bolus" method can grow corals just fine. Bolus dosing of alkalinity and rapid start lighting using metal halides has been done successfully for decades.

2. Anyone saying it grows corals better than some other method should identify what that other method is. This aspect seems very often missing, leaving it unclear what it even means to "work better". I'm sure it works better than some others.

3. Turning lights up faster than usual will cause pH to rise faster than usual and maybe higher. That effect makes it impossible to discern from anyone fully doing "the method" whether bolus dosing itself is impacting pH.

4. It is exactly known and understood how different alkalinity additives impact pH and alkalinity. The fact that seawater is a complex setting does not make it impossible to know these things.

5. Corals like what they like, and we do not always understand all of what they like, which also may vary by organism. Do they respond positively to a sudden increase in alkalinity? I do not know.

6. By the same token, we do know that corals seem to grow faster at both higher alkalinity and higher pH. Anything that is done to boost these things may make them grow faster. Again, the question is compared to what, but higher pH from lighting increases and/or higher alkalinity from a bolus alkalinity dose that peaks at higher alkalinity than spread out dosing may boost coral growth.

7. Many of the FM mechanistic claims are simply incorrect. Trying to provide them may help their cause for many reefers who are convinced, but to those who look deeper, they simply serve to make it clear there is no mechanistic basis for the claims except those mentioned in 3-6. Discussion of invisible crystals of unknown composition, a calculator doing incorrect calculations of alkalinity dosed, and false comments about buffer system failures only serve to make it clear that there is no base of understanding behind the method.

So to summarize,
it is clear there is nothing wrong with doing it,
it is unclear if (and where/when) there are benefits aside from more lighting
there is no basis in science for many of the mechanistic claims

Thanks for summarizing this!

 

[rishma]

Randy has explained Part C and I’ve read all that. It’s mostly magnesium sulfate and some potassium.

Lou from TM claims there are ALL 70 trace elements from seawater in it as well. I find that claim hard to believe but if true, they should clearly state that in their label IMO.

Ingredient lists matter IMO and we, as the hobby, should be pushing every manufacturer to clearly label what we are adding. This fits right into the FM claims and them trying to hide “secret” ingredients

I am pretty critical of most companies in the industry. Too many scientific sounding claims with dubious basis (which I hate) and propriety ingredients (which I am only partly tolerant of). That said, I do hold TM in higher regard than the others. FM being the worst in my view.

But, I agree with your point on the 70 trace elements. I had not seen that claim, but agree it should be explained or retracted. Bad form.

 

[rtparty]

I am pretty critical of most companies in the industry. Too many scientific sounding claims with dubious basis (which I hate) and propriety ingredients (which I am only partly tolerant of). That said, I do hold TM in higher regard than the others. FM being the worst in my view.

But, I agree with your point on the 70 trace elements. I had not seen that claim, but agree it should be explained or retracted. Bad form.

I have the utmost respect for TM. Hans is one of the very few I listen to at this point in my hobby journey.

Another user had posted the Balling ingredients and it left me confused. So, I started searching to find what exactly was in Part C. The only things I can find listed by TM are Mg and K. Sodium free sea salt or whatever is not an ingredient in my book especially if there are indeed trace elements within the solution.

My 250 was run on BRS balling hybrid and the results were plenty good for me. The few ICP tests I did also showed it work well enough IMO.

 

[rishma]

I have the utmost respect for TM. Hans is one of the very few I listen to at this point in my hobby journey.

Another user had posted the Balling ingredients and it left me confused. So, I started searching to find what exactly was in Part C. The only things I can find listed by TM are Mg and K. Sodium free sea salt or whatever is not an ingredient in my book especially if there are indeed trace elements within the solution.

My 250 was run on BRS balling hybrid and the results were plenty good for me. The few ICP tests I did also showed it work well enough IMO.

I love the look at that tank!

 

[dowdalld]

Right in their own documentation. Areefer posted it.

Shows the magnesium and potassium concentration for the mix. It’s almost all magnesium sulfate and some potassium. Not sure if the potassium is potassium sulfate or what.

If it isn’t just those two, why not list the ingredients and concentrations of everything else in it? Lou said it contains all 70 trace elements of seawater. Where are the levels and concentrations of these? Do they know them or just rely on impurities for most of them?

There's a significant thread on here about part C.
Post in thread 'Clarity on Tropic Marin Part C' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/clarity-on-tropic-marin-part-c.572262/post-8544200