BRS - what's up with Sicce Syncra ADV pumps?

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,488
Reaction score
61,035
Location
Decatur, AL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Agreed, PF’s a non-issue for residential applications. Induction motors don’t approach unity power factor though. Permanent magnet motors are better across the whole curve, and get close to unity but still a ways away. I think this might be a DOL PMM or brushless DC (more or less the same thing), but I can’t figure how they could do so with those price points and still maintain any margin.
My guess is that it is a normal AC reluctance motor. The shape of the motor housing indicates more components than a typical AC pump starting capacitor. My guess is that they included a filter circuit inside the motor casing to flatten the shape of the sine wave. If done correctly this will reduce pump vibration and "hum". The capacitance in the filter circuit will push the power factor up toward unity.
 

ksed

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
1,265
Reaction score
865
Location
Toronto
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
They do put a chip in the pump but what this is, I don’t know.
The Fluval SP (Askoll) series pumps has had this technology for years now. They are very quiet pumps, very similar to DC.
 
Last edited:

rushbattle

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,347
Reaction score
1,644
Location
Equality
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My guess is that it is a normal AC reluctance motor. The shape of the motor housing indicates more components than a typical AC pump starting capacitor. My guess is that they included a filter circuit inside the motor casing to flatten the shape of the sine wave. If done correctly this will reduce pump vibration and "hum". The capacitance in the filter circuit will push the power factor up toward unity.
This makes sense to me. I hadn’t thought of this possibility.
 

rockskimmerflow

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
620
Reaction score
632
Location
Socal
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My guess is that it is a normal AC reluctance motor. The shape of the motor housing indicates more components than a typical AC pump starting capacitor. My guess is that they included a filter circuit inside the motor casing to flatten the shape of the sine wave. If done correctly this will reduce pump vibration and "hum". The capacitance in the filter circuit will push the power factor up toward unity.
Sounds intriguing, but if it was so easy to do all along why hasn't anyone else done it yet? From my understanding small reluctance motors are quite a bit trickier to design than a simple psc motor with a typical stator winding. The reluctance motor needs some clever switching controls to energize the 2 stator poles at the correct times to maintain rotor speed. I'm not sure how the capacitor you speak of could be incorporated. But I don't have any degrees in electrical engineering so I'm just going at this from an electric motor hobbyist level. Maybe @Amoo could explain the sicce pump's mysterious .97 PF for us

The fluval 'smart' pump is a lot different to whatever sicce is using here @ksed. Those definitely have a .5 to .67 PF
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,488
Reaction score
61,035
Location
Decatur, AL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Sounds intriguing, but if it was so easy to do all along why hasn't anyone else done it yet? From my understanding small reluctance motors are quite a bit trickier to design than a simple psc motor with a typical stator winding. The reluctance motor needs some clever switching controls to energize the 2 stator poles at the correct times to maintain rotor speed. I'm not sure how the capacitor you speak of could be incorporated. But I don't have any degrees in electrical engineering so I'm just going at this from an electric motor hobbyist level. Maybe @Amoo could explain the sicce pump's mysterious .97 PF for us

The fluval 'smart' pump is a lot different to whatever sicce is using here @ksed. Those definitely have a .5 to .67 PF
The switching of a reluctance motor happens in an AC circuit naturally because of the sine wave. On one half of the sine wave the current flows one direction through a coil producing a positive. A winding on the opposite side will be wound the opposite direction so it creates a negative. When the sine wave drops into the other direction, the polarity on both windings switches. They will always turn at synchronous speed that can be calculated using NP=120f where N is the speed, P is the number of poles, and f is the applied frequency. To create a variable speed motor (think DC pumps) it requires some clever switching to provide a variable frequency to the motor.

Power factor is a vector relationship between voltage and current. In a purely resistive circuit the current and voltage are completely in phase. We call this unity power factor, or a pf of 1. In an inductive circuit the voltage leads current by 90 degres. We call this a lagging power factor. In a capacitive circuit the current leads voltage by 90 degrees and we call it a leading power factor.
Motors windings are coils making them inductive. There are other factors that come into play such as the resistance of the winding and counter electromotive force that provide a resistance element. There is a very minor capacitive impact. This means motors, on their own, will have a lagging power factor. To counter this a correctly sized capacitor can be added in parallel with the motor windings to cancel out the inductance and shift the pf closer to 1.

Hope that helps, and let me know if you have any questions.
@Amoo may have a better way of explaining it.
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,488
Reaction score
61,035
Location
Decatur, AL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
@Brew12
Here is a picture of the chip located inside the Fluval pump which is an Askoll. Perhaps Sicce has a similar design.
http://www.fluvalaquatics.com/ca/saltwater/aquarium-pumps/series/sp-series/
Possible. Unfortunately, I can't see enough detail to know how it is used. Along the bottom are 3 thermistors, 2 lower power and 1 higher power. These could be used for load sensing or for reducing stating current but without knowing the exact ratings and how they are wired I can't say more than that.
 

rockskimmerflow

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
620
Reaction score
632
Location
Socal
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The switching of a reluctance motor happens in an AC circuit naturally because of the sine wave. On one half of the sine wave the current flows one direction through a coil producing a positive. A winding on the opposite side will be wound the opposite direction so it creates a negative. When the sine wave drops into the other direction, the polarity on both windings switches. They will always turn at synchronous speed that can be calculated using NP=120f where N is the speed, P is the number of poles, and f is the applied frequency. To create a variable speed motor (think DC pumps) it requires some clever switching to provide a variable frequency to the motor.

Power factor is a vector relationship between voltage and current. In a purely resistive circuit the current and voltage are completely in phase. We call this unity power factor, or a pf of 1. In an inductive circuit the voltage leads current by 90 degres. We call this a lagging power factor. In a capacitive circuit the current leads voltage by 90 degrees and we call it a leading power factor.
Motors windings are coils making them inductive. There are other factors that come into play such as the resistance of the winding and counter electromotive force that provide a resistance element. There is a very minor capacitive impact. This means motors, on their own, will have a lagging power factor. To counter this a correctly sized capacitor can be added in parallel with the motor windings to cancel out the inductance and shift the pf closer to 1.

Hope that helps, and let me know if you have any questions.
@Amoo may have a better way of explaining it.
Thanks and Roger that. I knew that was how PF, induction motors, and simple non-directional reluctance motors like a Mag drive etc worked. but always thought the directional start, 'smarter' reluctance motor pumps used some more clever circuitry design to control power delivery based on load. Maybe they're a lot simpler than I thought. Can you answer this - why add the capacitor? Would it not bear a slight reduction in efficiency? And why would Sicce need to add it to reduce hum, since most of the standard reluctance motor pumps are already very quiet and this factor seems to be linked to the balance of the impeller and rotor assembly riding in the bearings more than anything to do with the drive method?
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,488
Reaction score
61,035
Location
Decatur, AL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
thought the directional start, 'smarter' reluctance motor pumps used some more clever circuitry design to control power delivery based on load.
Directional start can be accomplished in 2 ways. The old fashioned way is to have some sort of mechanical stop to bounce the rotor back into the correct direction. You can also do it by using a feedback sensor to to determine rotor position and time closing of a contact so the sine wave is in the correct position in relation to the rotor.

Power will always be directly proportional to the load and isn't really controllable. If you throttle flow using a valve the motor power will go down.

Can you answer this - why add the capacitor? Would it not bear a slight reduction in efficiency?
It will hurt efficiency which is why motor manufacturers typically won't do this to help power factor. However, if you were going to be using capacitors for a different function, such as filtering or wave shaping, it would make sense to size them appropriately to help with pf.

And why would Sicce need to add it to reduce hum, since most of the standard reluctance motor pumps are already very quiet and this factor seems to be linked to the balance of the impeller and rotor assembly riding in the bearings more than anything to do with the drive method?
I use Sicce Pro's on my system and they are quiet, but they are louder than typical DC pumps of the same size. A great example of wave shaping to reduce noise are the Vortech Quiet Drives. When they came out with the QD's you could upgrade the controller while using the same wet and dry sides. The noise reduction was very impressive with the 2 MP40's I upgraded this way. They went from too noisy for me to enjoy to almost dead silent.
 

rockskimmerflow

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
620
Reaction score
632
Location
Socal
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Directional start can be accomplished in 2 ways. The old fashioned way is to have some sort of mechanical stop to bounce the rotor back into the correct direction. You can also do it by using a feedback sensor to to determine rotor position and time closing of a contact so the sine wave is in the correct position in relation to the rotor.

Power will always be directly proportional to the load and isn't really controllable. If you throttle flow using a valve the motor power will go down.


It will hurt efficiency which is why motor manufacturers typically won't do this to help power factor. However, if you were going to be using capacitors for a different function, such as filtering or wave shaping, it would make sense to size them appropriately to help with pf.

Very cool. I figured it would hurt efficiency which doesn't jive with Sicce's marketing line of..... "Excellent energy efficiency with a near perfect power factor (cos? – Cos.fi : almost= 1) Energy savings pays for the pump"

I know any of the pumps like the fluvals or Sicce ADV with a directional impeller use an electronic starting direction control. The Sicce Pro's are really old, proven designs of the Quiet One line and I've never found them to be especially quiet either haha. The bearing design on them and the original sicce syncra silent is not my favorite style personally. They MP40s are a DC controllable pump so from a cost perspective, they are already set up for waveform shaping - and I find it kind of embarrassing it took ecotech that long to put in proper waveform shaping into the driver. I thought some of the more advanced AC return pumps like the Fluvals might use some waveshaping to reduce the torque ripple you'd get with a pure sine in a reluctance design. That was always what I thought they meant by smart pump with rotor monitoring and adjustment. Maybe it was all just marketing talk for a directional startup circuit, and thermal protection lol.

The more I think about it, the more it might be that Sicce is using their SDC pump block (DC controllable in that spec) and have a simple 'lite' type of power transformer/driver potted into the block for the ADV line that makes it behave like a 'dumb' pump. Would that explain the .97 PF from the wall plug while allowing for more traditional AC style pump behavior?

And I hear you on power being proportional to load. That's not what I meant by adjusting power delivery for load -was speaking more about waveform adjustment through some sort of electronic control. Have seen the valve effect on all induction principle pumps ranging from iwakis to eheims to reeflos - just not any DC models of course.
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,488
Reaction score
61,035
Location
Decatur, AL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The more I think about it, the more it might be that Sicce is using their SDC pump block (DC controllable in that spec) and have a simple 'lite' type of power transformer/driver potted into the block for the ADV line that makes it behave like a 'dumb' pump. Would that explain the .97 PF from the wall plug while allowing for more traditional AC style pump behavior?
This is a fantastic observation, you may be on to something! I need to think if/how it could be done in a cost effective manner.....
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,488
Reaction score
61,035
Location
Decatur, AL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The more I think about it, the more it might be that Sicce is using their SDC pump block (DC controllable in that spec) and have a simple 'lite' type of power transformer/driver potted into the block for the ADV line that makes it behave like a 'dumb' pump. Would that explain the .97 PF from the wall plug while allowing for more traditional AC style pump behavior?
I just got off the phone with a sales rep I deal with and what he said leads me to believe you may be correct. I wasn't aware just how far the costs for the BLDC controllers has dropped. Texas Instruments recently released a BLDC controller for small (under 48W) motors that OEM's can buy for under $3. I'm sure a slightly higher power version wouldn't be much more expensive. The rectifier needed to power it wouldn't be much more than the controller.
The thing I'm struggling with is why they wouldn't bring the extra 2 wires out of the motor to make it controllable?
 

ksed

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
1,265
Reaction score
865
Location
Toronto
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That’s why we are starting to see controllable AC pumps not to be confused with controllable DC.:eek:
 

ksed

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
1,265
Reaction score
865
Location
Toronto
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Sicce ADV are very similar to the SDC.
You here a lot of manufacturers saying we moved the chip from the pump to the controller.
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
22,488
Reaction score
61,035
Location
Decatur, AL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The part I don't understand is if they did put a BLDC controller in the motor itself, why didn't they bring out 2 extra wires and make it speed controllable? The cost to do this would be under $3 each and they could advertise it as constant speed without a controller or variable speed/Apex ready.
 

Amoo

Professional Thread Derailer
View Badges
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
2,898
Reaction score
7,273
Location
Alapaha, GA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thanks for tagging me @rockskimmerflow but @Brew12 has the same background base knowledge as I do and probably equivalent if not more post-graduate level theory/knowledge. That's to say we've never actually whipped them out on the table and compared :) Safe to say though Brew is going to give you solid and legit infos.
 

ksed

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
1,265
Reaction score
865
Location
Toronto
Rating - 0%
0   0   0

Creating a strong bulwark: Did you consider floor support for your reef tank?

  • I put a major focus on floor support.

    Votes: 45 41.3%
  • I put minimal focus on floor support.

    Votes: 23 21.1%
  • I put no focus on floor support.

    Votes: 38 34.9%
  • Other.

    Votes: 3 2.8%
Back
Top