Calibration Adjustment

[ca1ore]

I have noticed something about my trident and wanted to know if others have also ….

When I am calibrating the Trident, it goes through a bunch of steps. One of those is to display an 'interim' set of measurements on the Trident tile in fusion. So, for example, my current calibration solution is 8.1/415/1340; the 'interim' measurements (different than the last normal Trident test run) are 8.25/447/1370. Once the calibration is complete, the tile then displays the reset values from the solution bottle (as expected). So what are the 'interim' values? My assumption is that they are the current test results from the Trident from the calibration solution which then get adjusted to the calibration solution values. In this case, the Trident was reading 0.15 too high for ALK, 32 for Ca ….. etc. Maybe everybody already knew this …..

 

[Badilac]

I have noticed something about my trident and wanted to know if others have also ….

When I am calibrating the Trident, it goes through a bunch of steps. One of those is to display an 'interim' set of measurements on the Trident tile in fusion. So, for example, my current calibration solution is 8.1/415/1340; the 'interim' measurements (different than the last normal Trident test run) are 8.25/447/1370. Once the calibration is complete, the tile then displays the reset values from the solution bottle (as expected). So what are the 'interim' values? My assumption is that they are the current test results from the Trident from the calibration solution which then get adjusted to the calibration solution values. In this case, the Trident was reading 0.15 too high for ALK, 32 for Ca ….. etc. Maybe everybody already knew this …..

That was what I always assumed.

 

[lakai]

I don’t understand the calibration thing when all it does is reset the numbers to what is input. It’s a pointless waste of time and reagent. I don’t care about the whole precision vs accuracy speech they want to give us. Just let us have an option to manually offset the readings no matter what they are.

 

[GabeM]

I don’t understand the calibration thing when all it does is reset the numbers to what is input. It’s a pointless waste of time and reagent. I don’t care about the whole precision vs accuracy speech they want to give us. Just let us have an option to manually offset the readings no matter what they are.

This is likely not supported but you could probably just run the calibration with your tank water and input the values you want.

 

[ca1ore]

I don’t understand the calibration thing when all it does is reset the numbers to what is input. It’s a pointless waste of time and reagent. I don’t care about the whole precision vs accuracy speech they want to give us. Just let us have an option to manually offset the readings no matter what they are.

Why would you want to do that? What would you offset to? Calibration may take up time, but it doesn’t use a lot of reagent. I think calibrating to a known standard is important. I’ve had more problems with test kits being all over the place than the trident.

 

[User1]

I don’t understand the calibration thing when all it does is reset the numbers to what is input. It’s a pointless waste of time and reagent. I don’t care about the whole precision vs accuracy speech they want to give us. Just let us have an option to manually offset the readings no matter what they are.

Not sure I understand why you would say it wastes reagents. There is a bit extra reagent in each bottle for this very reason. The calibration process is to run a a couple tests then calibrate to a "KNOWN" value. Sort of like why the CHP have a certified speedometer, why PMEL exists for torque wrenches and other things of similar nature. I mean you want a IV with a uncalibrated dosing pump?

 

[lakai]

When you calibrate the trident, all it does is purge and prime the sample and waste lines and sets the trident to whatever parameters you enter in regardless if they are the numbers on the calibration fluid then does a full test. Like @GabeM mentioned above you can say do manual tests, enter in the numbers from your manual tests into the calibration while using your tank water and it will be set at those parameters. It doesn't really matter so much what you enter because it just offsets and tracks from those numbers from the numbers you enter in.

To clarify I'll give you an example. Say you decide to take your leftover B reagents from two different lots. Around 3 bottles of leftover B reagent will be aprox. 1 full bottle of B. You can pour it all into one bottle and mix those all together if you run out of reagent and can't find any online and use it even if its from 3 different batches/lot numbers. It doesn't really matter. If you do a say salifert test calcium or magnesium with your tank water and input the numbers from that manual test into the part where you are supposed to enter in the number from the bottle of calibration fluid ( example. salifert 1380 mag / calibration fluid 1420 mag). Calibrate with your tank water, it will pruge your waste line, prime your sample line then do a full alk, cal , mag test and your trident dashboard it will show your mag level as 1380 because that is what you entered, not because it is what the test came up with. Tests after that will be based off of that number you entered when your trident does its testing schedule. i.e next test +15 mag 4 hours later -25 mag whatever.

 

[User1]

When you calibrate the trident, all it does is purge and prime the sample and waste lines and sets the trident to whatever parameters you enter in regardless if they are the numbers on the calibration fluid then does a full test. Like @GabeM mentioned above you can say do manual tests, enter in the numbers from your manual tests into the calibration while using your tank water and it will be set at those parameters. It doesn't really matter so much what you enter because it just offsets and tracks from those numbers from the numbers you enter in.

To clarify I'll give you an example. Say you decide to take your leftover B reagents from two different lots. Around 3 bottles of leftover B reagent will be aprox. 1 full bottle of B. You can pour it all into one bottle and mix those all together if you run out of reagent and can't find any online and use it even if its from 3 different batches/lot numbers. It doesn't really matter. If you do a say salifert test calcium or magnesium with your tank water and input the numbers from that manual test into the part where you are supposed to enter in the number from the bottle of calibration fluid ( example. salifert 1380 mag / calibration fluid 1420 mag). Calibrate with your tank water, it will pruge your waste line, prime your sample line then do a full alk, cal , mag test and your trident dashboard it will show your mag level as 1380 because that is what you entered, not because it is what the test came up with. Tests after that will be based off of that number you entered when your trident does its testing schedule. i.e next test +15 mag 4 hours later -25 mag whatever.

I hear you. However mixing reagents contaminates them. They have lot numbers and expiration dates. They are not additive based. The bottles have extra reagents to address the calibration process. That is why you only have to calibrate one time and not after every reagent A swap.

 

[lakai]

The calibration process is to run a a couple tests then calibrate to a "KNOWN" value.

Yes but I don't believe that is what the trident does. It assumes the numbers that you enter into the calibration menu are in fact the correct numbers. I does not do any multi point calibration nor are the reagents certified by anything and calibrates to merely just a reference. Trident after all is a hobby test kit with accuracy in line with other hobby test kits like hanna.

 

[BlueZreef]

I hear you. However mixing reagents contaminates them. They have lot numbers and expiration dates. They are not additive based. The bottles have extra reagents to address the calibration process. That is why you only have to calibrate one time and not after every reagent A swap.

hey...question since I just got to my first B/C swap. Do I need to calibrate now that those are changed? Somehow I ran out of B/C but my second bottle of A still has like 30% left.

 

[User1]

Yes but I don't believe that is what the trident does. It assumes the numbers that you enter into the calibration menu are in fact the correct numbers. I does not do any multi point calibration nor are the reagents certified by anything and calibrates to merely just a reference. Trident after all is a hobby test kit with accuracy in line with other hobby test kits like hanna.

I guess it will come down to what the hobbyist believes is correct. Neptune's Trident FAQ:

Can I match the Trident reported parameters to what I read with my test kits?
While not recommended, yes, that is possible.
If you believe your test kit numbers to be closer to the actual parameters of your water than what the Trident is reporting, then it is possible to use your tank water as your calibration standard instead of the calibration standard sold by Neptune Systems.
To do this, simply follow the calibration procedure and instead of the calibration standard use your water and use the values you believe your water to be.
We will say that a great amount of effort has been put into making the Trident both accurate and precise. While we understand the faith you might have in your test kit, careful consideration should be made before dismissing an appropriately calibrated Trident measurement.

 

[User1]

hey...question since I just got to my first B/C swap. Do I need to calibrate now that those are changed? Somehow I ran out of B/C but my second bottle of A still has like 30% left.

A two month box has 2 (A) and 1 of each (B) and (C) reagents. It guarantees they are of the same batch or lot numbers. One calibration bottle is included. I do not believe you need to calibrate after replacing B and C reagents since you already used the calibration bottle upon the first A bottle replacement if that makes sense.

The only time I run through calibration is when I'm opening a new 2 month box. In fact, I did this on Sunday. Replaced all reagents, let it run 3 tests, then ran through the calibration using the included bottle.

I think they cover it here:

https://www.neptunesystems.com/getstarted/trident/faq/

 

[ca1ore]

When you calibrate the trident, all it does is purge and prime the sample and waste lines and sets the trident to whatever parameters you enter in regardless if they are the numbers on the calibration fluid then does a full test. Like @GabeM mentioned above you can say do manual tests, enter in the numbers from your manual tests into the calibration while using your tank water and it will be set at those parameters. It doesn't really matter so much what you enter because it just offsets and tracks from those numbers from the numbers you enter in.

To clarify I'll give you an example. Say you decide to take your leftover B reagents from two different lots. Around 3 bottles of leftover B reagent will be aprox. 1 full bottle of B. You can pour it all into one bottle and mix those all together if you run out of reagent and can't find any online and use it even if its from 3 different batches/lot numbers. It doesn't really matter. If you do a say salifert test calcium or magnesium with your tank water and input the numbers from that manual test into the part where you are supposed to enter in the number from the bottle of calibration fluid ( example. salifert 1380 mag / calibration fluid 1420 mag). Calibrate with your tank water, it will pruge your waste line, prime your sample line then do a full alk, cal , mag test and your trident dashboard it will show your mag level as 1380 because that is what you entered, not because it is what the test came up with. Tests after that will be based off of that number you entered when your trident does its testing schedule. i.e next test +15 mag 4 hours later -25 mag whatever.

Yes, I understand all that (and agree). My question was more about why calibrate the Trident to something that may or may not be accurate. I do not use the salifert test kits, but I do use Hanna for alkalinity and it is all over the place. I recently was having an issue with hanna reading low. Even though the reagent was not expired, I replaced it with new and the readings are back to where I'd broadly expect. I think it is important to adjust the Trident to a known sample. I guess we just have to trust that the calibration solution is what it says it is LOL.

 

[ca1ore]

calibrates to merely just a reference.

…. which is the same thing as calibrating to a known value. If the calibration solution is 8.1 and you input 8.2 into the task I think the Trident would then consistently read 0.1 higher than actual. So I suppose you could offset it that way.

 

[BlueZreef]

A two month box has 2 (A) and 1 of each (B) and (C) reagents. It guarantees they are of the same batch or lot numbers. One calibration bottle is included. I do not believe you need to calibrate after replacing B and C reagents since you already used the calibration bottle upon the first A bottle replacement if that makes sense.

The only time I run through calibration is when I'm opening a new 2 month box. In fact, I did this on Sunday. Replaced all reagents, let it run 3 tests, then ran through the calibration using the included bottle.

I think they cover it here:

https://www.neptunesystems.com/getstarted/trident/faq/

I think my issue is my first lot of reagent is still going through it’s second bottle of A but my B/C ran out.

So now I have B/C from a new box but still A from first box. Numbers seem pretty close so I’m Not really worrying about it but just like to know. Still seems odd to me that lot to lot the reagent differs enough that they can’t be mixed when there is leftovers. As long as it’s generally accurate I suppose it’s a small price to pay to waste some.

 

[lakai]

…. which is the same thing as calibrating to a known value. If the calibration solution is 8.1 and you input 8.2 into the task I think the Trident would then consistently read 0.1 higher than actual. So I suppose you could offset it that way.

Im not disagreeing with you but let me ask you this. How do you know the parameters on the calibration fluid are correct ? Other than taking their word for it. How is the calibration fluid tested to ensure it is accurate ?

 

[User1]

Im not disagreeing with you but let me ask you this. How do you know the parameters on the calibration fluid are correct ? Other than taking their word for it. How is the calibration fluid tested to ensure it is accurate ?

You would need to ask Neptune that. However, I am sure as with any calibration reference there is a method to the madness (meaning they have a process in manufacturing it). If you noticed each bottle of calibration solution has different values. I'm looking at a couple of my bottles I've saved and they are different lot numbers and values. Lot numbers more than likely reference the lot numbers of the reagents although I've not checked that.

There are a few posts on the various forums comparing test kits to the trident and they all end the same way. Which measurement are you going to trust? I tend to lean towards the trident and each of the ATI ICP tests I have sent in always come back aligned to my trident's numbers. I've even run a manual test using Hanna's ALK kit and it is close.

At the end of the day I bought the trident to do this so that is my choice. All other kits have been tossed except my Nyos Nitrate and Hanna Alk / Phosphate because they are easy yet consistent. 3 times a year I send in ICP tests to ATI at which time I pull the water sample 5 minutes before the tridents next test.

 

[ca1ore]

How do you know the parameters on the calibration fluid are correct ?

Already answered that point above (I think it is important to adjust the Trident to a known sample. I guess we just have to trust that the calibration solution is what it says it is LOL). As you said, all this stuff is hobby grade kit so close enough is probably good enough. Always makes me chuckle when folks say their alkalinity is 8.26 ….. I'm happy when mine is between 8 and 9.

 

[Silver14SS]

Anyone done an ICP on the calibration fluid?

Would be nice if something like this was readily available with some kind of certification.

Multi Reference 100ml | Fauna Marin

With this reference, it is possible to test your water tests under real conditions. The references are not made from fresh water, the ions sprektrum was according to the test media.

www.faunamarin.de

 

[User1]

Anyone done an ICP on the calibration fluid?

Not sure it would work. None of them do Alk anyway although ATI does list carbon hardness dkh whereas others do not.