Can velvet be dropped off so quickly and be visible?

coweyes298 · Nov 11, 2017

I have a white tail bristletooth tang in QT for almost a month. I only treated with antibiotic and just stop the antibiotic yesterday. Due to the ammonia spike I started to do large water change for two consecutive days starting day before yesterday.

This morning before QT light was on I saw huge amount of white spot on my tang, it didn't have this the night before. First I thought it was velvet. So I prepared to do fresh water dip and getting ready for Acriflavine bath. While preping I saw lots of white spot falling on my tang. Those spot is attached. White stringy poop is my Randall's anthias poop for size comparison. While preparing the dip my tang shows less or can say no spot present. This is only in less than 30 min tine frame. I don't have a picture while tang was having the spot. But is it possible that velvet can be dropped off from fish so quickly and be visible after dropping? I didn't observe my tang for any heavy breathing nor swimming to power head.

coweyes298 · Nov 11, 2017

My tang is sneaking out and chasing the pellet I just dropped... right now it is almost spotless... I think I will still do the fresh water dip follow by acriflavine bath. Copper dosing is still debating. I may still do that, but just don't want to ramp the copper level so fast like treating with velvet.

Humblefish · Nov 11, 2017

Velvet trophonts will remain on a fish for a minimum of 12 hrs before dropping off.

I would give him a 5 min FW dip to check for flukes (watch the video): https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

coweyes298 · Nov 11, 2017

Well I didn't do the FW dip. I put my tang into acriflavine bath for 75 min and put him back to QT. I just started coppersafe dosage around 1 ppm. I will hang the copper level there and start first Prazipro treatment. I will do a large WC after 24 hours.

coweyes298 · Nov 11, 2017

@Humblefish can you give me input on my situation?

I stopped the metro + kana combo on Thursday (11/09) since it is already at 12 days mark. I noticed seachem ammonia badge showed light green so I did large water change (50% twice in 4 to 5 hours span). The badge went back to normal after WC. I didn't dose any antibiotics after WC, instead I put a bag of active carbon in HOB. At late Friday night (11/10) I noticed 1 Randall's anthias hiding under PVC with no gill movement. I took it out and it was already dead. Didn't see any gill burn nor skin defect on the dead body. This Anthias was still active before lights out.

And as for today (11/11) like the first post, White Tail tang showed huge amount of white dots before the lights on. I then move him to acriflavine bath for 75 min and put him back to QT. I started coppersafe and the dosage is at 1ppm at noon today.

At afternoon today I noticed another randall anthias was not looking good. He laid on his side and seldom move his fins and tail but he was still breathing normal pace. I decided put him to acriflavine bath for 60 min and hoping it will ward some infection if he had any. He stayed calm and breath slowly during the bath. But once I released him back to QT he lost his balance. He Still breath slowly but couldn't maintain his equilibrium. After an hour this anthias was dead. Picture is before his death.

I did gathered the body and checked for gill. I also did fresh water dip for 5 min with black bowl but didn't see any fluke present. Attached image is for body on both side, with gill and also 5 min FW dip.

For the QT progress : I did antibiotics + copper from the beginning but due to bio film issue I stopped the copper at 7 days mark. Restarted the QT with sterilized everything but reserved some filter media 14 days ago. The second round QT I just finished 12 days metro + kana combo. Today is at 14 days mark of restarted QT. I did get ammonia spike around 10 days mark. I am still figuring out the ammonia problem since I fed them same amount food but ammonia didn't show up the first week.

These Randall are with me in this QT journal the entire 1.5 month. They still have intestinal infection and it is stubborn even with whole 1.5 months of food soaked with metro, kana and focus.

I am thinking of these possibilities:

1. New salt water have ammonia? I am going to check that with my Red Sea kit and report back. At Thursday after I did large WC I checked ammonia and the kit still showed total ammonia at 2 ppm, while seachem badge showed yellow. The badge stayed yellow till today. The first Anthias died at Friday night but I didn't see any ammonia burn/gill looks fresh pink on dead body. Second Anthias today but couldn't see any gill burn.

2. Velvet. Maybe the large WC triggered velvet? I didn't observed any velvet symptom, except for my WT tang showed huge white dots todays morning. I have reached coppersafe level to 2 ppm in the course of 6 hours this afternoon. First Randall's Anthias died with no medication presented at Friday night. No gill burn or white dots on the body. But can still be velvet. Second Anthias died at 1 ppm of copper. Maybe it is too late.

3. Copper sensitive fish? The second anthias may be super sensitive to copper. He died at 1ppm copper level.

I am now reached 2ppm coppersafe level. Along with first round dosage of Prazipro. Will did WC after 24 hours of prazi with pre-dose copper.

Humblefish · Nov 11, 2017

coweyes298 said:
2. Velvet. Maybe the large WC triggered velvet? I didn't observed any velvet symptom, except for my WT tang showed huge white dots todays morning. I have reached coppersafe level to 2 ppm in the course of 6 hours this afternoon. First Randall's Anthias died with no medication presented at Friday night. No gill burn or white dots on the body. But can still be velvet. Second Anthias died at 1 ppm of copper. Maybe it is too late.

^^ This would be my best guess. You need to maintain 2ppm Coppersafe for a solid month in order to eradicate velvet.

BTW, biofilm will not degrade copper because copper is a poison. Biofilm only breaks down true medications such as praziquantel, metronidazole, antibiotics, etc.

coweyes298 · Nov 11, 2017

Updated. After lights out I check my tang. Yes the huge amount of white dots shows up again. And right after I flashed my tang with flash light the dots fall off again. Now it looks like bite mark on his skin. There are huge amount of white dots on the bottom of tank. It is hard to take pic with flash light, but attached.

Humblefish · Nov 11, 2017

@coweyes298 Have you done the FW dip to check for flukes?

coweyes298 · Nov 11, 2017

Nope I haven't. I killed three fish last time during FW dip so I ditched that and did acriflavine bath instead. After bath there were no dots on my tang. But I believe the dots fell off before I started the bath. The first thread pic is the dots at QT before the bath. The dots is so big that doesn't look like fluke to me.

coweyes298 · Nov 12, 2017

I checked again. My tang got something like bite mark after the white dots drop off. It looks like portion of the skin/scale is missing. He is not doing well, swimming on his sides and leave his favorite PVC. I pull him out and currently doing the acriflavine bath. I guess this is velvet.

Humblefish · Nov 12, 2017

@coweyes298 This looks/sounds like velvet. However, if the tang dies drop his body in freshwater (tap is fine) so we can (hopefully) rule out flukes/worms as a possible cause. If he has worms, they will detach from his body once exposed to FW and look white at the bottom of the bucket.

coweyes298 · Nov 12, 2017

Tang and other lethargic anthias. This is just now. Lots of white dots on the bottom of QT. I am still not sure what is this. Fluke or velvet? I have this last morning without prazi.

Tang got some skin peeled of. And he still have some dots on his body and skin. I am afraid if I did FW dip now I might lose the tang and this anthias...But fact is they may not get over the storm.

I did FW dip for another anithas to check for fluke but not much left on the FW dip container. That anthias does look powder dusty on sides and on fins so after FW I did acriflavine bath 75 min. This anthias is back to QT and is doing ok.

@Humblefish can I do water change before 24 hour of prazipro dosage? It is at 20 hours mark now, but the ammonia badge show tint of green.

4FordFamily · Nov 12, 2017

I agree this is velvet. Just keep fish in 2-2.5 PPm chelated copper for 30 full days and this won’t happen again.

Sorry for your losses

Humblefish · Nov 12, 2017

The "peeled skin" adds a new element to this; meaning it could actually be brook: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/brooklynella.247938/

I'm also starting to think the white things you see dropping off may actually be excess mucous from the fish's slime coat (another indicator of brook).

Copper will suppress symptoms of brook, but metro should be combined with copper in order to eradicate it: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/metronidazole.298762/

@coweyes298 I understand you have had bad experiences doing a FW dip, but IMO that will help your fish (via temporary relief) more than an acriflavine bath right now. A fish that dies during a FW dip wasn't gonna last much longer anyway IME.

coweyes298 · Nov 12, 2017

Well answering myself. If anything happened to be ammonia spike, do water change first. Can always redose prazipro later the course if needed.

Sadly, White Tail Tang didn't make it. That lethargic anthias is not that good at all.

coweyes298 · Nov 12, 2017

@Humblefish I just finished my 12 days metro + kana treatment. The day I ended the treatment Tang still looked clean. I thought brook might be eliminated already.

Humblefish · Nov 12, 2017

coweyes298 said:
@Humblefish I just finished my 12 days metro + kana treatment. The day I ended the treatment Tang still looked clean. I thought brook might be eliminated already.

It's probably best to treat with metro for 30 days (same as copper) to be sure brook is 100% gone.

coweyes298 · Nov 12, 2017

Just checked my tang's dead body it do show slim like coating peeled off on one side of his head area. I had that way back before for my other clown fish so I am leaning to brook. That means 12 days metro + kanaplex didn't eliminate brook in the equation in my case.

For the anthias I lost in these three days, no sign of brook presented.