ChemiClean Not Working - Next Steps

[paintman]

Turkey baster, power filter, and some commitment.

 

[BradVol]

No, your not. Let's get that out of the way.
Reef tanks are a balance and sometimes it takes a bit to get it back in.


I have a hard time with this statement. Everyone says it nobody has proved it.
How is it a chemical can decipher what bacteria is good and which is bad to only kill the good?
I think.....
It's better to say they kill both equally. Maybe the bad bac are better at getting a foothold on real estate. I'm not 100% sure.



Coral love ammonium. Testing for nitrate is what's left over in the water column.
Bacteria eat phosphate, coral eat bacteria.

I try to keep the po4 above 0.05.
It runs @ about 0.1 +/- 0.03.
My nitrates, undetectable with my hanna. It's been this way since April when I stopped dosing nitrates. I started feeding heavy instead.

My recommendation;
Water change to get the chemical out and stop water changes. Dinos loves the new water so don't do them.

They also hate elevated no3/po4.
So then raise it up. Sodium nitrate and sodium phosphate cheaper than Neophos/neonitrate. You can mix it yourself with a cheap scale.

More fish would help. Or shut down your skimmer. Get that tank dirty.
Keep feeding heavy.

Let's get that microscope and figure out what you got.

Thanks for the encouragement. I started skimming into a bucket and replacing manually with fresh water. I'll do a bigger WC tonight to try to get the skimmer under control and then stop WCs and turn the skimmer down so it only aerates.

Microscope turned out to be a bust. It's old and looks like a film coating is giving up on one of the pieces. I'm working on another option now and if that doesn't work I'll order one.

I'll pull out the RowaPhos I started recently and put carbon in the reactor instead.

I'll also get the QT tank up and running and get fish when I can.

I'll also figure out what I need to get to mix the sodium nitrate and phosphate. I assume I should target about 0.1 on phosphate, but how high for nitrate?

Is it worth trying the Dr Tim's dinos treatment or no?

 

[Dburr1014]

Thanks for the encouragement. I started skimming into a bucket and replacing manually with fresh water. I'll do a bigger WC tonight to try to get the skimmer under control and then stop WCs and turn the skimmer down so it only aerates.

Microscope turned out to be a bust. It's old and looks like a film coating is giving up on one of the pieces. I'm working on another option now and if that doesn't work I'll order one.

I'll pull out the RowaPhos I started recently and put carbon in the reactor instead.

I'll also get the QT tank up and running and get fish when I can.

I'll also figure out what I need to get to mix the sodium nitrate and phosphate. I assume I should target about 0.1 on phosphate, but how high for nitrate?

Is it worth trying the Dr Tim's dinos treatment or no?

Sounds like a plan.
I would go to at least 10 on no3.

 

[BradVol]

I did a 25% WC and got the skimmer under control. It's running 24/7 now but only high enough to skim what's left of the ChemiClean. Once that's done I'll lower it so it's not skimming, just aerating. Is it a good idea to shut it off for several hours every night?

I've also seen people mention raising the temp of the tank. Should I do that to 80-81? I can do that pretty easily.

I also deep cleaned both MP-10 wet sides in citric acid and flow in the tank is a lot higher. The sandbed is certainly staying clearer today. I also reduced the lighting duration by a few hours. It feels like I'm changing a lot, so hopefully it's not too much.

I picked up a 1200x microscope for $20 on facebook marketplace. I'm about to go read up on the ID thread to figure out how to get a good sample and what I'm looking for. Here's the first thing I found looking around:

I dosed enough Seachem Phosphorous (I had it around already) to raise the tank by 0.03. I'll start measuring daily and target 0.1. I'm going to get the Spectracide stump remover granules today and try to bring Nitrate up as well, targeting 10ppm over a week or so.

Is there anything else I should be doing in the near term other than not changing water and actively skimming?

 

[Dburr1014]

I did a 25% WC and got the skimmer under control. It's running 24/7 now but only high enough to skim what's left of the ChemiClean. Once that's done I'll lower it so it's not skimming, just aerating. Is it a good idea to shut it off for several hours every night?

I've also seen people mention raising the temp of the tank. Should I do that to 80-81? I can do that pretty easily.

I also deep cleaned both MP-10 wet sides in citric acid and flow in the tank is a lot higher. The sandbed is certainly staying clearer today. I also reduced the lighting duration by a few hours. It feels like I'm changing a lot, so hopefully it's not too much.

I picked up a 1200x microscope for $20 on facebook marketplace. I'm about to go read up on the ID thread to figure out how to get a good sample and what I'm looking for. Here's the first thing I found looking around:

I dosed enough Seachem Phosphorous (I had it around already) to raise the tank by 0.03. I'll start measuring daily and target 0.1. I'm going to get the Spectracide stump remover granules today and try to bring Nitrate up as well, targeting 10ppm over a week or so.

Is there anything else I should be doing in the near term other than not changing water and actively skimming?

I know not that long ago a lot of people used that stump remover. But it's a question of quality and what's in it. If you can pick up loudwolf trisodium phosphate or sodium phosphate. It's much more pure than the stump remover. They sell it on Amazon or I think you might be able to get it Direct.

@taricha is real good at identifying types of dinos.

 

[BradVol]

I know not that long ago a lot of people used that stump remover. But it's a question of quality and what's in it. If you can pick up loudwolf trisodium phosphate or sodium phosphate. It's much more pure than the stump remover. They sell it on Amazon or I think you might be able to get it Direct.

@taricha is real good at identifying types of dinos.

Thanks! The stump killer is for nitrates I believe, so maybe I should look for something else. Although I read the threads where the MSDS sheet says 100% leaving no room for impurities like normal. I'll look for something more pure for phosphate as well if I am going to need to dose it on an ongoing basis.

Here's a video of my tank immediately after turning the pumps on after the WC. Mainly to show flow, I guess. But any other input is welcome: https://photos.app.goo.gl/LXPEMuc4Chpq8yfGA

Here's a video of one of the things I found moving: https://photos.app.goo.gl/no6rZgUmpt11v5wc7

And I've attached several other images of things I found. I'd love help with ID on any of them that are relevant. I'm pretty sure the big on is the mother ship for some population of something.

All the help, past and future, is much appreciate. The tank actually looks a lot better today. We'll cross our fingers for the near future.

 

[Dburr1014]

Yes, sorry, stump remover is nitrates. Lots of folks use sodium nitrate instead.

 

[BradVol]

The tank certainly looked better today, but dinos were still taking hold in areas I cleaned yesterday.

When I measured parameters today nitrate was still at 3ppm but phosphate was at 0ppb. I dosed enough phosphate to raise it to 0.09ppm and measured 0.06 an hour later. I also dosed enough nitrate to raise it 5ppm and I'll measure it tomorrow. I'll have to be really careful to keep the phosphate above 0 it looks like. I'm not sure I've ever had a 0ppb reading before.

The dinos ID seems to be ostreopsis. I've ordered a UV light to put in the return chamber (best I can do easily and temporarily) along with Dr Tim's Re-Fresh and Waste Away in case they're needed.

The best I can gather, the path forward is to:

• Stay away from nutrient export like WC, skimmer that's skimming, etc
• Run UV at 1W/3gal and a flow rate of 1-3x tank turnover/hr
• Keep dosing so levels are always above zero, target 0.1ppm phosphate and 10ppm nitrate
• Change filter floss often, likely daily
• Change carbon weekly
• Maybe turn the lights off for a couple days after UV is running to get the Ostreopsis into the water column? I probably won't do a full blackout initially.
• Once target nutrient levels are reached use Dr Tim's Re-Fresh for 3 days followed by Waste Away at 1/4 dose (initially) to encourage beneficial/competing bacteria.

Do I have anything obviously wrong or am I missing anything in that plan of attack?

 

[Dburr1014]

I found getting them to go into the water colunm is best. Blackout 3 days helps. Dosing H2o2 at night will also help.

 

[BradVol]

I found getting them to go into the water colunm is best. Blackout 3 days helps. Dosing H2o2 at night will also help.

I really appreciate your consistent input on this. Hopefully updates will soon be far more sporadic.

I do intend to follow up on this. I've read tons of threads about similar issues and there's rarely a post after the resolution to clarify what actually worked. It's frustrating when you're trying to research. But maybe this experience for me can help someone in the future.

 

[BradVol]

Little update. The tank inhabitants seem happier. Snails are moving around more. Corals look happier. Fish still look like idiots. It's probably the carbon pulling out toxins that's helping the snails.

I've been running UV for 2 days now. The dinos don't seem to have lessened any, but they have changed appearance slightly and are more stringy now.

I've gotten nutrients up. Phosphate is 0.13 ppm tonight and Nitrate is about 18ppm on a NYOS test. I'm going to let them fall and attempt to maintain at 10ppm Nitrate and 0.10ppm Phosphate. My Trident is reading calcium around 550 consistently, but a Red Sea test has it at 440. No precipitation so I think my Trident is doing Trident things.

Tomorrow I'm going to start a 3 day blackout with the Dr Tim's Dinos system using Re-Fresh for 3 days and then Waste Away.

If anyone has any other input I'm all ears.

 

[BradVol]

I'm in day 2 of a blackout and Dr Tim's Dinos program. Turns out I got the freshwater version of Re-Fresh on accident and didn't realize it until I already dosed it, so that day was probably a wash. I got the marine version and started it today. I'll probably extend the blackout to 4 days with 3 days of the Re-Fresh.

I took a peek in the tank and things have improved slightly but not a whole lot yet.

Nitrates have been 16, 18, 16 the last 3 days with no additional dosing. Phosphates have been 0.13, 0.12, 0.13. Is it normal for them to stay so steady with no dosing? I was surprised by that. Maybe it's a sign the dinos are dying off, maybe it's because the lights aren't on, or maybe it's just wishful thinking. Any ideas?

 

[Dburr1014]

I'm in day 2 of a blackout and Dr Tim's Dinos program. Turns out I got the freshwater version of Re-Fresh on accident and didn't realize it until I already dosed it, so that day was probably a wash. I got the marine version and started it today. I'll probably extend the blackout to 4 days with 3 days of the Re-Fresh.

I took a peek in the tank and things have improved slightly but not a whole lot yet.

Nitrates have been 16, 18, 16 the last 3 days with no additional dosing. Phosphates have been 0.13, 0.12, 0.13. Is it normal for them to stay so steady with no dosing? I was surprised by that. Maybe it's a sign the dinos are dying off, maybe it's because the lights aren't on, or maybe it's just wishful thinking. Any ideas?

PO4 gets soaked up in the rocks/sand until it's in equilibrium with the water. If the water has less than, rocks will release, if the water has more than, the rock/sand soak up.

 

[BradVol]

I've completed the 3 day blackout. I've been running a 13W tube UV light in the sump return chamber where the sponge filter usually goes. I dosed Re-Fresh for 3 days and am on day 2 of the Waste Away dosing. The dinos seem to be gone or massively scaled back. Tank looks healthy and parameters are stable. The plan from here is to continue through the Waste Away dosing program, do my best to maintain 10ppm nitrate and 0.10ppm phosphate, run the UV for 2 weeks after that, and re-evaluate.

Nitrate is falling moderately. I'm targeting 10ppm so will likely have to dose again today or tomorrow. Phosphate has actually been ticking up over the last 5 days with no dosing. I'm currently at 0.14 and not sure if I should do something to bring it down towards 0.10 or not. I'm open to suggestions.

 

[MoMoTheMonster]

Checking to see if you have any updates on your progress @BradVol?

 

[BradVol]

Checking to see if you have any updates on your progress @BradVol?

Thanks for checking. I was planning to provide an update sometime this week.

The dinos seem to be gone. There's been a little cyano here and there but I think that will pass as things balance out. I stopped running the UV after a month, so it's been off about 10 days and the dinos don't seem to have returned.

Nitrate required initial dosing over about 4 days to get it up to a desired level, but I haven't dosed it since and it's been pretty steady. Phosphate does require ongoing dosing. It seems to use 0.02-0.03 per day now. The test results show low because I only test right before I dose and I've been doing that every 3 days on average. Maybe I should dose 1/3 the amount daily instead of letting it swing between 0.11 and 0.04. If anyone has input on that I'd be happy to hear it.

The big issue is the tank got run over with hair algae and some bryopsis. I started fluconazole (Reef Flux) at 3/4 the recommended dose 5 days ago. The bryopsis got knocked out in 2-3 days and the GHA is slowing dying off. I'm guessing it'll take 3-4 weeks to do everything it's going to do.

My soft corals and LPS look happier than they've ever been, by a significant bit. My SPS looked better for a while but recently started looking rough. Maybe the phosphate swings are too big for them?

I'm also unclear where to go from here. Once the fluconazole is done I'm not sure what nutrient levels to target. I'm getting more fish this week so I hope a higher bioload will stabilize things. I've only got 2 fish right now. I have a few questions, if anyone has suggestions please let me know:

• What nitrate and phosphate levels should I target long term? It's a mixed reef system.
• At what point is it safe to start moving toward them?
• What can I do to stop the algae from taking over and using up all the phosphate in the system?
• How careful do I need to be about phosphate swings? Is it ok to start it at 0.1 and dose it back up when it reaches 0.04? Or does it really need smaller daily dosing?
• What else can I do to move towards a beautiful reef that's not overrun by dinos or algae in the long run?