ChemiClean Not Working - Next Steps

[BradVol]

I prefer not using chemicals and haven't in the last 2 years, but I treated my tank with ChemiClean and am approaching the 48 hour mark and the cyano (or what I think is cyano) isn't gone like I expected. I'm looking for help on what to do next.

My tank is 3 1/2 years old. It's a Red Sea Reefer 170. It's never looked good. My ugly stage has been indefinite. Husbandry has been terrible the last 6 months but has also been excellent for extended periods of time.

I've had what I believe is cyano almost from the start. I've never been free of it completely. It's deep red or maroon in color. I've tried keeping nutrients low and also gone significant periods without water changes. Doesn't seem to make a difference.

I've had GHA issues most of the time. I've used RowaPhos and gotten that under control but the red slime got worse during those periods. I'm currently running RowaPhos again but only started a week ago.

Before starting RowaPhos and ChemiClean phosphates measured 0.002 on a Hanna ULR checker, but I hadn't done a water change in months so something was consuming most of the phosphate pretty quickly.

Corals have actually seemed pretty decent. I have a Trident and auto dosing.

What should I do next?
1. Water change and stop/remove ChemiClean at 48 hour mark.
2. Redose or increase ChemiClean dose since tank was so dirty, with or without water change in the interim
3. Something else if the problem isn't likely to be cyano
4. Get on an accelerated schedule of 20% water changes and see what happens in the next month

I'm happy to go the slow and steady path. I would really like to have a nice looking tank before I give up and sell everything.

Salinity: 34ppt
Alk: 8.4-8.7 (ranges are slow variations over weeks)
Ca: 440-480
Mg: 1300-1350
Nitrates: haven't tested recently
Phos: Always under 0.03
pH: 8.05-8.25 daily
Temp: 78-80 daily

Only 2 fish currently, a clown and possum wrasse. Purple firefish was fine until recently WC and ChemiClean then got ill suddenly and died.

I use RODI water. Haven't changed RO membrane or DI resin in about 2 years.

Any other info on my parameters or negligence I'm happy to provide.

 

[BanZI29]

It looks like you have some aptasia growing too. have you vacuumed your sand while doing the water change?

 

[Dburr1014]

I prefer not using chemicals and haven't in the last 2 years, but I treated my tank with ChemiClean and am approaching the 48 hour mark and the cyano (or what I think is cyano) isn't gone like I expected. I'm looking for help on what to do next.

My tank is 3 1/2 years old. It's a Red Sea Reefer 170. It's never looked good. My ugly stage has been indefinite. Husbandry has been terrible the last 6 months but has also been excellent for extended periods of time.

I've had what I believe is cyano almost from the start. I've never been free of it completely. It's deep red or maroon in color. I've tried keeping nutrients low and also gone significant periods without water changes. Doesn't seem to make a difference.

I've had GHA issues most of the time. I've used RowaPhos and gotten that under control but the red slime got worse during those periods. I'm currently running RowaPhos again but only started a week ago.

Before starting RowaPhos and ChemiClean phosphates measured 0.002 on a Hanna ULR checker, but I hadn't done a water change in months so something was consuming most of the phosphate pretty quickly.

Corals have actually seemed pretty decent. I have a Trident and auto dosing.

What should I do next?
1. Water change and stop/remove ChemiClean at 48 hour mark.
2. Redose or increase ChemiClean dose since tank was so dirty, with or without water change in the interim
3. Something else if the problem isn't likely to be cyano
4. Get on an accelerated schedule of 20% water changes and see what happens in the next month

I'm happy to go the slow and steady path. I would really like to have a nice looking tank before I give up and sell everything.

Salinity: 34ppt
Alk: 8.4-8.7 (ranges are slow variations over weeks)
Ca: 440-480
Mg: 1300-1350
Nitrates: haven't tested recently
Phos: Always under 0.03
pH: 8.05-8.25 daily
Temp: 78-80 daily

Only 2 fish currently, a clown and possum wrasse. Purple firefish was fine until recently WC and ChemiClean then got ill suddenly and died.

I use RODI water. Haven't changed RO membrane or DI resin in about 2 years.

Any other info on my parameters or negligence I'm happy to provide.

What steps did you do with chemiclean? It sounds like you didn't vacuum out what you could before dosing.

Many things can cause cyano.

Lights, what lights do you have? Age and program?

Flow or not enough flow I should say. What pumps do you use? Speed?

Imbalance of nutrients. Is like you to measure nitrates so we have a baseline.

 

[iseethruyou2]

Looks like dinos to me

 

[BradVol]

Thanks for the replies. I know I've done a poor job recently and am committed to changing that. I'm very open to suggestions and you won't hurt my feelings.

It looks like you have some aptasia growing too. have you vacuumed your sand while doing the water change?

Yes, I got it off a frag and fought it ever since. Early on I used Aiptasia X and Joe's Juice but they just spread them all over the tank. I used Berghia nudibranches and they were excellent. Got rid of all of them I could see and stayed away close to a year. Now I have a Possum Wrasse and was worried it would eat the nudibranches so I got peppermint shrimp. They've kept the population down (it was very bad) but it seems to be getting worse again. I'm open to input or ideas.

I did vacuum the sand when I changed the water before ChemiClean. I also used a turkey baster to blow off the live rock. I drained and replaced 15 gallons and every bucket was really really dirty. Maybe I need to clean and treat again?

What steps did you do with chemiclean? It sounds like you didn't vacuum out what you could before dosing.

Many things can cause cyano.

Lights, what lights do you have? Age and program?

Flow or not enough flow I should say. What pumps do you use? Speed?

Imbalance of nutrients. Is like you to measure nitrates so we have a baseline.

Before ChemiClean I used a turkey baster to get as much of it off the rocks and sand as I could. Used a toothbrush to clean as much of it and algae as I could. Vacuumed the sand and sucked as much stuff off the rock and possible.

Light is AI Hydra 26 HD, 3 years old. Peak light settings are:
UV: 62%
Violet: 62%
Royal Blue: 65%
Blue: 65%
Green: 0%
Red: 0%
White: 9%

Lights run at peak for 7 hours with a 2 hour ramp on both sides.

Return pump flow is moderate. I have 2 MP10s on the back wall, one on each side and one higher and the other lower.

They run in Reef Crest mode at 40% with the child in Sync mode most of the day. At night they run in Lagoon mode at 5% anti-sync for 2 hours to give the shrimp time to eat Aiptasia. Then they run in Nutrient Transport mode synced at 50% for 2 hours.

I'll go test Nitrates now and report back.

I also haven't done anything with the ChemiClean. I wonder if I should do another 25% WC and vacuum the sand and rock again and treat with ChemiClean.

 

[Reeferbadness]

I'd get some F Aiptasia and spot-control the few that i see in the photo - before you get a full on infestation. Also, probably dinos which you will have to use other methods to eradicate (4 day black out, etc)

 

[Lavey29]

Looks like dinos to me also. Chemiclean doesn't do anything for that except bottom out your nutrients and make the dinos worse. Chemiclean just kills off your good bacteria in your biome.

 

[RRA]

First it is probably best to freshen up your RO/DI unit, two years you have to be adding crap by this point....

Personally I would stop with all the dosing because your dosing and cant even ID what your dosing with 100% certainly. You have a long battle to get that tank straight things wont bet better in a month or two you will need months. I would do 20% WC and vacuuming, scraping and cleaning that sand bed as much as I can every time weekly. First week I might even do a deeper clean and larger WC if I am confident I could get my WC water to match my tank.

 

[BradVol]

I'd get some F Aiptasia and spot-control the few that i see in the photo - before you get a full on infestation.

I actually have some F-Aiptasia. I'll hit the ones I can see today.

First it is probably best to freshen up your RO/DI unit, two years you have to be adding crap by this point....

Personally I would stop with all the dosing because your dosing and cant even ID what your dosing with 100% certainly. You have a long battle to get that tank straight things wont bet better in a month or two you will need months.

I'll order a new membrane and replace the DI resin. I'm still getting 0 TDS on my RODI water but it's smart to replace them anyways.

What dosing are you suggesting to stop? The ChemiClean or something else? The ChemiClean seems to have been working slowly. It's better today than yesterday and if I start removing it now it'll still probably work for a bit before it's gone.

Imbalance of nutrients. Is like you to measure nitrates so we have a baseline.

I just measured Nitrate and it's 3ppm. Surprisingly low for a tank with one water change in the last 4 months.

I'll also note that my skimmer has never produced much. It's a Red Sea RSK-300 and is probably a bit oversized for the tank.

I'm also trying to get my hands on a microscope to try to ID what I have.

Is my best course of action right now to start removing the ChemiClean, do another 25% WC, and evaluate from there?

 

[Dburr1014]

I actually have some F-Aiptasia. I'll hit the ones I can see today.



I'll order a new membrane and replace the DI resin. I'm still getting 0 TDS on my RODI water but it's smart to replace them anyways.

What dosing are you suggesting to stop? The ChemiClean or something else? The ChemiClean seems to have been working slowly. It's better today than yesterday and if I start removing it now it'll still probably work for a bit before it's gone.



I just measured Nitrate and it's 3ppm. Surprisingly low for a tank with one water change in the last 4 months.

I'll also note that my skimmer has never produced much. It's a Red Sea RSK-300 and is probably a bit oversized for the tank.

I'm also trying to get my hands on a microscope to try to ID what I have.

Is my best course of action right now to start removing the ChemiClean, do another 25% WC, and evaluate from there?

Yes, get a microscope. That was going to be my next suggestion as some people think it's dinos.
Looks like cyano to me but maybe you have both.
To deal with dinos, you want zero water changes.

Looks like nutrients is well balanced, so rule that out.

Where the rock has cyano, does it look like you have enough flow in that spot?

I would not suggest nudies again with the shrimp in the tank.

 

[BradVol]

Yes, get a microscope. That was going to be my next suggestion as some people think it's dinos.
Looks like cyano to me but maybe you have both.
To deal with dinos, you want zero water changes.

Looks like nutrients is well balanced, so rule that out.

Where the rock has cyano, does it look like you have enough flow in that spot?

I would not suggest nudies again with the shrimp in the tank.

I'm working on borrowing a microscope. In the interim I did the coffee filter test. It's hard to get a good picture but after close to an hour I do have a little bit of stringy clumps with tiny air bubbles attached. Is this indicative of dinos?

I hit the Aiptasia tonight. Not that that's my biggest issue right now.

Flow could also have been low with both MP10s maxing out at 40% in Reef Crest mode. I upped it to 70% and it looks like flow is better all around.

 

[Dburr1014]

I'm working on borrowing a microscope. In the interim I did the coffee filter test. It's hard to get a good picture but after close to an hour I do have a little bit of stringy clumps with tiny air bubbles attached. Is this indicative of dinos?

Flow could also have been low with both MP10s maxing out at 40% in Reef Crest mode. I upped it to 70% and it looks like flow is better all around.

Yes it is indicative of dinos. A microscope will help you identify which one. Post a video and a snapshot of them. You may have to use your phone with the scope of your microscope doesn't have that capability.

Good to hear about the flow. Flow is very important and coral always impede it as they grow.

 

[BradVol]

I'll have a microscope this afternoon. But last night I cleaned a few places off the live rock as a test. This morning it seems like it mostly returned as a clear green/brown film that looks a lot like algae. Is that indicative of dinos, cyano, algae, or a mix?

I'll try to get photo and video with the microscope today and report back.

 

[Lavey29]

I'll have a microscope this afternoon. But last night I cleaned a few places off the live rock as a test. This morning it seems like it mostly returned as a clear green/brown film that looks a lot like algae. Is that indicative of dinos, cyano, algae, or a mix?

I'll try to get photo and video with the microscope today and report back.

As long as your parameters are off, you will have never ending algae problems. Chemicals are a bandaid fix and do not correct the underlying issues causing your problems.

 

[BradVol]

As long as your parameters are off, you will have never ending algae problems

Thanks. Which parameters are you referring to? Everything measures in range. So I guess it would have to be algae, cyano, and dinos taking up the phosphate and nitrate?

 

[Lavey29]

Thanks. Which parameters are you referring to? Everything measures in range. So I guess it would have to be algae, cyano, and dinos taking up the phosphate and nitrate?

You quote your phosphate as being less then .03 which means it's probably 0. That alone will cause you dinos. You said you haven't been testing nitrates but when you did you were surprised to find it so low at 3ppm. So your tank biome has no nutrients and what little might be available is feeding the algae. You are supporting the bad guys and doing nothing for the good guys. Combine this with all your harsh chemicals treatments which kill off all the good bacteria supporting your biome and you are left with a big hole of a problem as evidenced by your continual algae issues. You need to get nutrients up. You need to start rebuilding your tank biome so the good guys can outcompete the bad guys

 

[BradVol]

You quote your phosphate as being less then .03 which means it's probably 0. That alone will cause you dinos. You said you haven't been testing nitrates but when you did you were surprised to find it so low at 3ppm. So your tank biome has no nutrients and what little might be available is feeding the algae. You are supporting the bad guys and doing nothing for the good guys. Combine this with all your harsh chemicals treatments which kill off all the good bacteria supporting your biome and you are left with a big hole of a problem as evidenced by your continual algae issues. You need to get nutrients up. You need to start rebuilding your tank biome so the good guys can outcompete the bad guys

Thanks for that. I'm struggling to figure out what to do. Maybe I'm just an idiot.

Phosphate in the water column is 7ppb which is 0.02. Nitrate is 3ppm. I don't understand why Nitrate would stay so low without water changes. What is it being converted into?

I'm running carbon to remove the ChemiClean. Skimmer goes nuts if I turn it on so I may have to change some water to help get rid of it. But I also assume you wouldn't suggest water changes right now so I'm not sure what to do there.

Should I aggressively clean the sand bed and tank? I could vacuum and run it through a filter to return the water to the tank if changing water is a bad idea.

I'm down to 2 fish in a 34g display. Should I get a couple more and get them in QT? I have plenty of CUC and about 10 corals.

I'm feeding on the heavy side. Should I dial that back or keep it going?

I'll try to get an ID with the microscope later today, but should I consider something like Dr Tim's process for dinos?

I guess I just don't know what to do. At times I've given my best effort for 6-9 months and at times I've been very slack, but it's never made a difference and I don't have the experience to know what changes to make and which not to. I appreciate the direct input.

 

[Lavey29]

Thanks for that. I'm struggling to figure out what to do. Maybe I'm just an idiot.

Phosphate in the water column is 7ppb which is 0.02. Nitrate is 3ppm. I don't understand why Nitrate would stay so low without water changes. What is it being converted into?

I'm running carbon to remove the ChemiClean. Skimmer goes nuts if I turn it on so I may have to change some water to help get rid of it. But I also assume you wouldn't suggest water changes right now so I'm not sure what to do there.

Should I aggressively clean the sand bed and tank? I could vacuum and run it through a filter to return the water to the tank if changing water is a bad idea.

I'm down to 2 fish in a 34g display. Should I get a couple more and get them in QT? I have plenty of CUC and about 10 corals.

I'm feeding on the heavy side. Should I dial that back or keep it going?

I'll try to get an ID with the microscope later today, but should I consider something like Dr Tim's process for dinos?

I guess I just don't know what to do. At times I've given my best effort for 6-9 months and at times I've been very slack, but it's never made a difference and I don't have the experience to know what changes to make and which not to. I appreciate the direct input.

If this hobby was easy we would all have giant beautiful reef tanks. It's the challenge that's makes this hobby fun. Every reefer goes through tough times like you. It's just the nature of the hobby. With only 2 fish you are producing almost no nitrates in the tank so yes a few more fish would help with extra feeding. Pellet food increases phosphate. Frozen cubes for the fish helps increase nitrates. I had to double dose neophos and neonitro for multiple months before I got measurable numbers. Let's see your microscope pic later and hopefully get a positive ID. Weekly water changes are essential. Do 15% once a week. Follow the steps I mentioned in a prior post. You will win this battle but it will take patience not harsh chemicals.

 

[Dburr1014]

Maybe I'm just an idiot.

No, your not. Let's get that out of the way.
Reef tanks are a balance and sometimes it takes a bit to get it back in.

You are supporting the bad guys and doing nothing for the good guys. Combine this with all your harsh chemicals treatments which kill off all the good bacteria supporting your biome and you are left with a big hole of a problem as evidenced by your continual algae issues.

I have a hard time with this statement. Everyone says it nobody has proved it.
How is it a chemical can decipher what bacteria is good and which is bad to only kill the good?
I think.....
It's better to say they kill both equally. Maybe the bad bac are better at getting a foothold on real estate. I'm not 100% sure.

Phosphate in the water column is 7ppb which is 0.02. Nitrate is 3ppm. I don't understand why Nitrate would stay so low without water changes. What is it being converted into?

Coral love ammonium. Testing for nitrate is what's left over in the water column.
Bacteria eat phosphate, coral eat bacteria.

I try to keep the po4 above 0.05.
It runs @ about 0.1 +/- 0.03.
My nitrates, undetectable with my hanna. It's been this way since April when I stopped dosing nitrates. I started feeding heavy instead.

My recommendation;
Water change to get the chemical out and stop water changes. Dinos loves the new water so don't do them.

They also hate elevated no3/po4.
So then raise it up. Sodium nitrate and sodium phosphate cheaper than Neophos/neonitrate. You can mix it yourself with a cheap scale.

More fish would help. Or shut down your skimmer. Get that tank dirty.
Keep feeding heavy.

Let's get that microscope and figure out what you got.

 

[Lavey29]

No, your not. Let's get that out of the way.
Reef tanks are a balance and sometimes it takes a bit to get it back in.


I have a hard time with this statement. Everyone says it nobody has proved it.
How is it a chemical can decipher what bacteria is good and which is bad to only kill the good?
I think.....
It's better to say they kill both equally. Maybe the bad bac are better at getting a foothold on real estate. I'm not 100% sure.



Coral love ammonium. Testing for nitrate is what's left over in the water column.
Bacteria eat phosphate, coral eat bacteria.

I try to keep the po4 above 0.05.
It runs @ about 0.1 +/- 0.03.
My nitrates, undetectable with my hanna. It's been this way since April when I stopped dosing nitrates. I started feeding heavy instead.

My recommendation;
Water change to get the chemical out and stop water changes. Dinos loves the new water so don't do them.

They also hate elevated no3/po4.
So then raise it up. Sodium nitrate and sodium phosphate cheaper than Neophos/neonitrate. You can mix it yourself with a cheap scale.

More fish would help. Or shut down your skimmer. Get that tank dirty.
Keep feeding heavy.

Let's get that microscope and figure out what you got.

I should have worded it better but yes chemiclean kills indescriminently both good and bad guys.