Chloramine and Membranes

[skim]

So a while back I was looking big time into Carbon blocks and Chloramine and how to break the bond between Chlorine and Ammonia. Reading everything I could find, watching Videos and ended up buying those Special Carbon Blocks at almost triple the price of the ones I use to get, not to mention worrying about what the Chloramine will do to my expensive Membranes.
Now I came across this at the DOW ( Filmtec ) site and found this to be very interesting so I thought I would pass it along.

Chloramines Studies have demonstrated that chlorine reacts with organic compounds present in drinking water to produce a variety of trihalomethanes (THMs). Toxicological investigations have implicated certain THMs as carcinogens. The EPA has established a maximum THM contaminate level of 100 ppb for drinking water. To meet this requirement, many water facilities have sought to reduce levels of THMs. This can be done by using chloramine as a disinfectant. Chloramine does not generate THMs. However, considerable controversy has arisen concerning the efficiency of chloramine disinfection and its potential health effects.


Page 2 of 2 ™® Trademark of The Dow Chemical Company ("Dow") or an affiliated company of Dow Form No. 609-22010-604
Chloramines (cont.) In aqueous solution, HOCl reacts with ammonia to form inorganic chloramines in a series of stepwise reactions.

HOCl + NH3 ' NH2Cl (monochloramine) + H2O HOCl + NH2Cl ' NHCl2 (dichloramine) + H2O HOCl + NHCl2 ' NCl2 (nitrogen trichloride) + H2O

These reactions are governed primarily by pH and chlorine-to-nitrogen weight ratio.

FILMTEC™ FT30 membrane has a 300,000 ppm-hour tolerance for chloramine, which implies that dechlorination is not required. However, since chloramines are formed by adding ammonia to chlorine, it is possible that free chlorine will be present. Since this free chlorine can be damaging to the membrane, dechlorination should still be considered.

So basically, they are saying do not worry about the Chloramine as it has no affect on the Membrane but use a type of Carbon to just take out and free Chlorine before the Membrane. WOW that is a big difference from everything you read or see out there now. Anyhow how, like I said I thought it maybe of some interest for others.

 

[Cory]

Thanks for the info. This complication is exactly why i want to switch to distilled water.

Electricty-water steam-carbon- pure water without doubt

As opposed to ro/di

Sediment filter-carbon filter-ro membrane-deionization resin-pure water with doubts

 

[Waterjockey]

Thanks for the info. This complication is exactly why i want to switch to distilled water.

Electricty-water steam-carbon- pure water without doubt

As opposed to ro/di

Sediment filter-carbon filter-ro membrane-deionization resin-pure water with doubts

It all depends on what quality water you are after. Generally the more pure the water desired, the more steps and equipment required.

 

[Cory]

It all depends on what quality water you are after. Generally the more pure the water desired, the more steps and equipment required.

Yes but not with distilled pretty much is a one step process to 0tds

 

[Waterjockey]

Yes but not with distilled pretty much is a one step process to 0tds

Well, no....not really. Distilling doesn't address chloramines, other voc's, etc. Especially a simple single stage batch unit. That's what you are using the carbon block for....so you are actually running a two step process, and putting the carbon block after the distiller to polish out the organics and voc's carried over from the distiller.
How is that different or simpler than running a carbon block before the RO unit to do the same thing? It's just pre-treatment before the main purification unit vs post treatment.

Adding the di canister does add a third stage...post polishing to achieve yet another level of purity.

Both have thier merits and limitations.

But really, just "how pure" must the water be to run a successful reef tank? Lots of people just use tap water.

 

[Cory]

Well, no....not really. Distilling doesn't address chloramines, other voc's, etc. Especially a simple single stage batch unit. That's what you are using the carbon block for....so you are actually running a two step process, and putting the carbon block after the distiller to polish out the organics and voc's carried over from the distiller.
How is that different or simpler than running a carbon block before the RO unit to do the same thing? It's just pre-treatment before the main purification unit vs post treatment.

Adding the di canister does add a third stage...post polishing to achieve yet another level of purity.

Both have thier merits and limitations.

But really, just "how pure" must the water be to run a successful reef tank? Lots of people just use tap water.

Thats right, but how complicated would it be to filter distilled though carbon?

With ro/di you must worry about sediment filter getting clogged, carbon lifespan or cloramines and chlorine will destroy the membrane, then a full deion resin bed can release ammonia iirc.

What is less prone to user error? Distilled for sure.

That said i use ro/di because electricity to make distilled is exspensive. When summer comes around i might build a solar water distiller, which is free using the sun.

 

[Waterjockey]

Thats right, but how complicated would it be to filter distilled though carbon?

With ro/di you must worry about sediment filter getting clogged, carbon lifespan or cloramines and chlorine will destroy the membrane, then a full deion resin bed can release ammonia iirc.

What is less prone to user error? Distilled for sure.

That said i use ro/di because electricity to make distilled is exspensive. When summer comes around i might build a solar water distiller, which is free using the sun.

To me, they are about the same, just different. You don't "worry" about a sediment filter "getting clogged", you just change the filter when it's due. Best practices for a steam distillation unit would have a sediment and carbon block pre treatment as well. Distilling water by heat leaves a lot of hard deposits on the heated surfaces which reduce efficiency and can ultimately damage the unit. Removing chlorine, voc's etc with a carbon block before distilling will significantly reduce carryover in the distillate. There are a host of reasons for purifying the water as much as practical before feeding it to the distiller. Because a person may choose not to, doesn't mean it's a best practice overall. I can certainly put straight tap water to an r.o. unit...but it's simply not a best practice for the life of the main equipment. Imho, all methods (r.o., ultra filter, thermal/vacuum distillation, deionization etc) benefit from as much pretreatment as practical.
I'm not sure there is much opportunity for "user error" in any of the consumer models of purification. Plug it in, add water and turn it on. When the filters get plugged, or tds begins to creep, change out the worn component, and carry on.
Solar distillation can carry on all year round with well built units, but yield is quite low, and often needs double or triple distilling because of the low temperatures involved. There is the cost to build the unit big enough to meet your systems daily needs, and the real estate/footprint is fairly high per unit water produced because of it's low efficiency. That being said, once you'very built the unit, the operating costs are the lowest.

 

[Cory]

To me, they are about the same, just different. You don't "worry" about a sediment filter "getting clogged", you just change the filter when it's due. Best practices for a steam distillation unit would have a sediment and carbon block pre treatment as well. Distilling water by heat leaves a lot of hard deposits on the heated surfaces which reduce efficiency and can ultimately damage the unit. Removing chlorine, voc's etc with a carbon block before distilling will significantly reduce carryover in the distillate. There are a host of reasons for purifying the water as much as practical before feeding it to the distiller. Because a person may choose not to, doesn't mean it's a best practice overall. I can certainly put straight tap water to an r.o. unit...but it's simply not a best practice for the life of the main equipment. Imho, all methods (r.o., ultra filter, thermal/vacuum distillation, deionization etc) benefit from as much pretreatment as practical.
I'm not sure there is much opportunity for "user error" in any of the consumer models of purification. Plug it in, add water and turn it on. When the filters get plugged, or tds begins to creep, change out the worn component, and carry on.
Solar distillation can carry on all year round with well built units, but yield is quite low, and often needs double or triple distilling because of the low temperatures involved. There is the cost to build the unit big enough to meet your systems daily needs, and the real estate/footprint is fairly high per unit water produced because of it's low efficiency. That being said, once you'very built the unit, the operating costs are the lowest.

I still think distilled is less complicated than ro/di :)

But that said ro/di are both good ways to do it.

There is a larger chance in user error with ro/di over time than distilled. Think about it, tds meters dont measure organics that can kill your tank like ammonia or chlorine. But it will measure minerals that hold charge. How do you know its time to change your reverse osmosis membrabe? When tds climbs or loss of pressure. Thats user error possibility.

Steam in generally clean, besides the voc, which is easily removed by carbon. The sediment on the bottom is easily removed in my electric distiller, and i can see how thick it gets, and i remove it. I wouldnt let it build up 1/2" thick. So being able to see it is reducing user error. Same with sediment in an ro/di, if you have them clear, mine are white.

Now tds meters can and do malfunction. Thats user error too. Plus they have rated accuracy. Steam has to be demineralized otherwise it wont be steam, its like a natural process and going to produce near close to 0 tds without relying on a tds meter and you dont have to worry your tds meter is working with distilled, its just that distilled.

I agree the cost and space is pretty big in a solar water distiller, but well worth it. I got a large shower door ill use. Couple of 10x2s with black silicone smeared all over. I exspect around 3-10 gallons a day. Not good for a huge tank though, but for a smaller tank it's perfect. And i just worry about water refils and carbon.

 

[skim]

Posted this on Friday maybe of interest in membrane selection. Mine are over a year old and I am still getting 99% rejection with the DOW 75 gal membranes.

 

[Cory]

Posted this on Friday maybe of interest in membrane selection. Mine are over a year old and I am still getting 99% rejection with the DOW 75 gal membranes.

Yep dow is pretty much the industry standard for membranes

Had mine for 5 years, just replaced it

 

[GoVols]

I still think distilled is less complicated than ro/di :)

But that said ro/di are both good ways to do it.

There is a larger chance in user error with ro/di over time than distilled. Think about it, tds meters dont measure organics that can kill your tank like ammonia or chlorine. But it will measure minerals that hold charge. How do you know its time to change your reverse osmosis membrabe? When tds climbs or loss of pressure. Thats user error possibility.

For myself: When it takes 8 hours to push out 15 gallons of good water... That membrane has got to go.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

So basically, they are saying do not worry about the Chloramine as it has no affect on the Membrane but use a type of Carbon to just take out and free Chlorine before the Membrane. WOW that is a big difference from everything you read or see out there now. Anyhow how, like I said I thought it maybe of some interest for others.

In all practicality, you'll always have free chlorine in you have chloramines. And yes, membranes can tolerate exposure to chloramine - it is the free chlorine that causes damage much much more quickly.

But even if we had a practical way to remove just free chlorine, and to leave the chloramines untreated - we wouldn't want to do this. Chloramine is lethal to the critters in your tank.

Russ

 

[cromag27]

Spectrapure makes a great chloromine filter.

 

[skim]

In all practicality, you'll always have free chlorine in you have chloramines. And yes, membranes can tolerate exposure to chloramine - it is the free chlorine that causes damage much much more quickly.

But even if we had a practical way to remove just free chlorine, and to leave the chloramines untreated - we wouldn't want to do this. Chloramine is lethal to the critters in your tank.

Russ

I am not a Engineer and no expert in filtration but have done some research and from what I found is any high quality DI resin should split the bind and remove the Chlorine and Ammonia. Even if you use the so called Chloramine Busters you will have to deal with the Ammonia and if you do not run DI then this is another nasty thing.

Spectrapure makes a great chloromine filter.

Does not matter what company or what you use there is NO PRODUCT THAT REMOVES CHLORAMINE. Chloramine is a bond between Chlorine and Ammonia and the the only thing you can try to do is break the bond between them. That is what is hopped to be achieved when using like a double Thick walled Carbon Blocks ( Chloramine Busters ). It is hoped that the first unit breaks the bond and absorbs the Chlorine and if some passes the second will absorb the rest. But like I said in the response above if you do not have DI resin you still will have to deal with the Ammonia. Which brings up a question. Should we be using something like Prime to treat are processed water in the end, to make sure that no Ammonia or Chloramine makes it into the Aquarium?

 

[cromag27]

http://spectrapure.com/1-Micron-Chl...n-Block-Filter-10-inch?filter_name=chloromine

 

[GoVols]

:)

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/fx-ch...ne-carbon-block-filtrex.html#tab-full-details

 

[skim]

http://spectrapure.com/1-Micron-Chl...n-Block-Filter-10-inch?filter_name=chloromine

:)

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/fx-ch...ne-carbon-block-filtrex.html#tab-full-details

Yes and like I said they do NOT REMOVE CHLORAMINE the fact that they contain a Catalyst Carbon and are thicker them the regular Blocks is how they break the bond between the Chlorine and Ammonia so they become separated and then the free Chlorine is absorbed by the Carbon and the Ammonia flows onto the DI resin.

 

[cromag27]

Call Charles and ask him. after all, he is the man who introduced ro and rodi water to the aquarium hobby.

 

[GoVols]

Yes and like I said they do NOT REMOVE CHLORAMINE the fact that they contain a Catalyst Carbon and are thicker them the regular Blocks is how they break the bond between the Chlorine and Ammonia so they become separated and then the free Chlorine is absorbed by the Carbon and the Ammonia flows onto the DI resin.

Randy Holmes-Farley: Told me they will do the job, on another forum.

That's good enough for me :)

 

[skim]

Randy Holmes-Farley: Told me they will do the job, on another forum.

That's good enough for me :)

Yup that they will I never said they would not, I am just saying that they do not physically remove Chloramine they break the bond between the Chlorine and Ammonia and absorb the now free Chlorine and the Ammonia is allowed to move on to the DI resin where it will be removed.

Call Charles and ask him. after all, he is the man who introduced ro and rodi water to the aquarium hobby.

Maybe you should call him and ask if the it removes it or does it break the bond that makes up Chloramine or just Google Chloramine. He may have introduced it to the Aquarium industry but he did make the RO filter. Filtec made it in I believe 1967 and then became part of DOW. Spectrapure does not shine in the Pre filters and Membranes as he buys them from other companies he does not make his pre filters or membranes where Charles and Spectrapure shines is in his mixes of DI resins and the knowledge of which ones to mix together to obtain the results that his DI resins produce.