Closed loop or Vortech

TPE

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I don't see a lot of posts with closed loop systems. I know they are older technology, just looking for some first hand experience to help me decide so I don't regret my decision later.

I am looking at upgrading my current 210 AGA tank to a 448 gallon 96x36x30 MRC peninsula hybrid glass tank. Bare bottom.

The tank will be on the first floor with the sump in a fish room directly below in the basement. I will be using an Abyzz A200 as a return pump.

Option A: closed loop only: (2) Abyzz A200 pumps split between (2) 2" drains and (6) 3/4 returns. This option should provide adequate flow, cleanest look, quite; provide a backup to my main return pump in case of failure. Drawbacks - pump expense, energy consumption, no battery backup.

Option B: Closed loop / Vortec: (1) Abyzz A 200 pump, (1) 2" drain; (3) 3/4" returns. Supplemented with Vortech MP60/ MP40. This option allows battery backup and return pump backup.

Option C: Vortech only: (4) MP60 or (2) MP60 and (2) MP40: adequate flow, battery backup, plus I currently own (1) MP40 and (1) MP60. Drawback- noise and not as clean looking, cleaning maintenance.

Thanks in advance!
 

reefwiser

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It depends on how complex you want to go really. You don’t see many close loops systems now days as it can be expensive to set up and plumb. You still might need power heads with a close loop as the corals grow and block the outlets. With the more controllable dc pumps you can change a close loop more now days.
 
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TPE

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It depends on how complex you want to go really. You don’t see many close loops systems now days as it can be expensive to set up and plumb. You still might need power heads with a close loop as the corals grow and block the outlets. With the more controllable dc pumps you can change a close loop more now days.
Thanks, leaning towards option B
 

JoshH

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I am running a closed loop system as is @Scratch08, sorry somehow I missed option B lol

Cost of a closed loop over powerheads can be negated by the much less time spent maintaining and cleaning them over the life of the pumps, and honestly the costs aren't that far off from one another anyway.

On a tank that size I would lean towards dual closed loop pumps, maybe 150w/230w Red Dragons to cut down a touch on cost but maintain solid reliability and longevity.
Run on 4 1" outlets you can then split to 8 3/4" outlets for maximum flexibility. With a single or double MP60's on the overflow end. Honestly for this setup you would need dual inlets to feed these pumps.

If I were to do it all over again, especially with a tank your size I would have an overFlow built large enough to include the closed loop pumps inside them and seeing as you are running bare bottom, run a false bottom on the bottom for the plumbing to run underneath. This way as things change you can relocate outlets as you see fit. It would be a pain but it would be doable. Also, there would be 0 holes drilled in the tank to avoid any leaks down the road permanently.
 
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TPE

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I am running a closed loop system as is @Scratch08, sorry somehow I missed option B lol

Cost of a closed loop over powerheads can be negated by the much less time spent maintaining and cleaning them over the life of the pumps, and honestly the costs aren't that far off from one another anyway.

On a tank that size I would lean towards dual closed loop pumps, maybe 150w/230w Red Dragons to cut down a touch on cost but maintain solid reliability and longevity.
Run on 4 1" outlets you can then split to 8 3/4" outlets for maximum flexibility. With a single or double MP60's on the overflow end. Honestly for this setup you would need dual inlets to feed these pumps.

If I were to do it all over again, especially with a tank your size I would have an overFlow built large enough to include the closed loop pumps inside them and seeing as you are running bare bottom, run a false bottom on the bottom for the plumbing to run underneath. This way as things change you can relocate outlets as you see fit. It would be a pain but it would be doable. Also, there would be 0 holes drilled in the tank to avoid any leaks down the road permanently.
Thanks for the suggestions. I am concerned about return nozzle placement, but not cleaning wet sides would be nice.
 

JoshH

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Thanks for the suggestions. I am concerned about return nozzle placement, but not cleaning wet sides would be nice.

Are you planning on a canopy to sit on the tank?

I have mine staggered off of each corner but honestly if I were to do it again I'd have 2 on the very far end 2 in the middle and run MP's on the overflow end exclusively

Screenshot_20200607-213703_Gallery.jpg


You can see how mine are laid out above, with the intake in the center
 
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TPE

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Are you planning on a canopy to sit on the tank?

I have mine staggered off of each corner but honestly if I were to do it again I'd have 2 on the very far end 2 in the middle and run MP's on the overflow end exclusively

Screenshot_20200607-213703_Gallery.jpg


You can see how mine are laid out above, with the intake in the center
Thanks,
Are you planning on a canopy to sit on the tank?

I have mine staggered off of each corner but honestly if I were to do it again I'd have 2 on the very far end 2 in the middle and run MP's on the overflow end exclusively

Screenshot_20200607-213703_Gallery.jpg


You can see how mine are laid out above, with the intake in the center
Most likely I will have some sort of a canopy. My wife doesn’t like the light spillage with an open top. Your setup looks nice and concealed; thanks for the picture it’s helpful. I need to run the numbers for cost and estimated power consumption for all options.
 

JoshH

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Thanks,

Most likely I will have some sort of a canopy. My wife doesn’t like the light spillage with an open top. Your setup looks nice and concealed; thanks for the picture it’s helpful. I need to run the numbers for cost and estimated power consumption for all options.

Another option if you are running a canopy, even if it doesn't touch your tank directly is to run your returns across to the far end inside the canopy or a couple closed loop outlets and have them drop down into the tank. Looks pretty clean and gives you massive flow from the top far end of the tank back towards the overflow.
 
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You have some sound advise here. Also they are not old school. Just a bit more effort into setting up properly. By properly I mean accessible to clean and/or perform basic maintenance. Oh, and also make them tank friendly and/or safe to its occupants. I personally wish I would have installed one in my recent up 210 gallon upgrade. I really dislike power heads in the display. So much that I'm going to probably be removing my Gyre's and going back to my pair of 1" sea swirls after upgrading the return pump(s).

I also do not think they are more expensive than power heads. Quality power heads, and you will need more than one, are going to run some money. The upgrade I'm toying with in my head I'm strongly considering a false wall around the overflow and have it draw water that way so its safe using a false wall. Then plumb the returns from there. Even possible to use two separate ones using two pumps and alternate flow.
 

JoshH

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The upgrade I'm toying with in my head I'm strongly considering a false wall around the overflow and have it draw water that way so its safe using a false wall. Then plumb the returns from there. Even possible to use two separate ones using two pumps and alternate flow.

Doooooo itt!!!! This is exactly what I mentioned above and honestly for peninsula tanks it's by far the best option for flow IMO. No holes in the tank, you can with some effort relocate any of the outlets wherever you want, whenever you want as they aren't stuck to any particular place due to holes in the glass. You can run dual pumps for varied flow rates. Tons of options...
 
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Doooooo itt!!!! This is exactly what I mentioned above and honestly for peninsula tanks it's by far the best option for flow IMO. No holes in the tank, you can with some effort relocate any of the outlets wherever you want, whenever you want as they aren't stuck to any particular place due to holes in the glass. You can run dual pumps for varied flow rates. Tons of options...

That is the plan anyway. I run two pumps now. A Cor 20 and a Cor 15. I use a virtual outlet and alternate between the two every 6 hours. I believe a closed loop would be a lot better though. Wish I knew or thought of it before I had this tank made. Oh well, live and learn.
 
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TPE

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Another option if you are running a canopy, even if it doesn't touch your tank directly is to run your returns across to the far end inside the canopy or a couple closed loop outlets and have them drop down into the tank. Looks pretty clean and gives you massive flow from the top far end of the tank back towards the overflow.
That’s an excellent idea. I am planning on a peninsula tank design but not using it as a typical peninsula. The tank will be set in the corner of my room and only have view on the front and right side. The back will be blacked out with vinal. Although not optimal, this setup allows me to fit the tank nicely in the room and allow the most flexibility if I ever move or golfer out of the hobby.
 
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That is how mine is. Originally it was going to be in the wall so we could also see it in the hallway or at least another viewing area. I decided not to do it. If I was smart or thought about it more when I had the tank built I could have made the false wall in the overflow area and do what @JoshH mentioned and be set. No flooding or at least heck of reduced risk :) Or keep it dry and put MP's back there. Options.

But I wasn't :) Here is mine as an example via the cad.

1593825555657.png
 

Scratch08

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Sorry I'm late to the party...been busy working on getting my tank 100% operational, and still holding at 90% ;Meh . Yes I'm running an "old school closed loop system". Currently rebooting my 75gal tank, I have four 1" outlets in the back panel of my tank, 2 uppers and 2 lowers. The uppers reduce down to 3/4" random flow generators, the lowers split to two 1/2" rfg's each for now ,these are likely to change in the near future. I'm using a Reeflo dart/snapper hybrid gold series for the closed loop, running the snapper impeller(2700 gph @ 98 watts, less watts when valved down). I use a gate valve on the output side to regulate my flow. This all feeds an Ocean Motions 4 way (which honestly I think is a very intuitive idea, but it needs some more thought put into design and execution, but Im a handy kind of guy and can make the changes I desire), which splits to my outlets in my tank.

I have been running closednloops since I got into the hobby 20 something years ago, in all honesty, I don't think they are all that much more expensive to set up than buying a bunch of powerheads/WaveMaker, which I despise because I don't like to see a bunch of equipment int my display tank. There is a faif amount of plumbing to do with a closed loop, but if you plan it out ahead of time its not that bad (just dont let @JoshH talk you into using colored pvc and the cost to plumb it will be minimal ;Hilarious).

Everything in blue pvc is my closed loop
20200620_221937.jpg
20200620_221920.jpg
20200620_221905.jpg
20200620_221726.jpg
 
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TPE

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Sorry I'm late to the party...been busy working on getting my tank 100% operational, and still holding at 90% ;Meh . Yes I'm running an "old school closed loop system". Currently rebooting my 75gal tank, I have four 1" outlets in the back panel of my tank, 2 uppers and 2 lowers. The uppers reduce down to 3/4" random flow generators, the lowers split to two 1/2" rfg's each for now ,these are likely to change in the near future. I'm using a Reeflo dart/snapper hybrid gold series for the closed loop, running the snapper impeller(2700 gph @ 98 watts, less watts when valved down). I use a gate valve on the output side to regulate my flow. This all feeds an Ocean Motions 4 way (which honestly I think is a very intuitive idea, but it needs some more thought put into design and execution, but Im a handy kind of guy and can make the changes I desire), which splits to my outlets in my tank.

I have been running closednloops since I got into the hobby 20 something years ago, in all honesty, I don't think they are all that much more expensive to set up than buying a bunch of powerheads/WaveMaker, which I despise because I don't like to see a bunch of equipment int my display tank. There is a faif amount of plumbing to do with a closed loop, but if you plan it out ahead of time its not that bad (just dont let @JoshH talk you into using colored pvc and the cost to plumb it will be minimal ;Hilarious).

Everything in blue pvc is my closed loop
20200620_221937.jpg
20200620_221920.jpg
20200620_221905.jpg
20200620_221726.jpg
Very nice setup! Thanks. I have found a few more posts with bottom plumbed closed loops. Definitely the cleanest looking. I’m ok with extra plumbing and I would use schedule 80 bulkheads to greatly reduce the risk of leaks. One of my goals is to continue to have a near silent DT and lower operating costs. I currently use an Apex to control my Vortecs and would like to continue if I go with the dual loop setup.
 

Scratch08

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Very nice setup! Thanks. I have found a few more posts with bottom plumbed closed loops. Definitely the cleanest looking. I’m ok with extra plumbing and I would use schedule 80 bulkheads to greatly reduce the risk of leaks. One of my goals is to continue to have a near silent DT and lower operating costs. I currently use an Apex to control my Vortecs and would like to continue if I go with the dual loop setup.
Thanks. Agreed that bottom plumbed is cleaner looking, unfortunately though my bottom pane is tempered, so I could not drill it...stock 75 gal tank. Honestly, the reason I went with the reeflo pump is the fact that it only produces up to 28 more watts than my reef octopus varios 6 return pump, so I dont really feel its going to increase my power draw, don't misunderstand me, not trying to discount what you want to do...but all in all, ac pumps typically don't pull much more power than a dc pump with similar, or even sometimes less flow ratings. Just something I've noticed over the years.

Not sure if there is much difference between schedule 80 and standard abs bulkheads as far as the chance they will leak...kind of a crap shot on that one...Ive had both type leak in the past...depends on how well you glue/thread seal them.

Absolutely a silent set up is a must. Mine is in my living room/den/dining room/kitchen/a few feet from my bed room...lol..I live in a rather small (by my standards, wife thinks its perfect size) townhouse, only "noises" I here is the slight trickling of water as it flows from my skimmer section to my return section in my sump...otherwise it is basically silent.

Good luck with your build, and post a link to your build thread when you start it so I can follow along! :cool:
 

JoshH

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That is how mine is. Originally it was going to be in the wall so we could also see it in the hallway or at least another viewing area. I decided not to do it. If I was smart or thought about it more when I had the tank built I could have made the false wall in the overflow area and do what @JoshH mentioned and be set. No flooding or at least heck of reduced risk :) Or keep it dry and put MP's back there. Options.

But I wasn't :) Here is mine as an example via the cad.

1593825555657.png

I didn’t come to this conclusion until long after my tank was built either unfortunately or I would have absolutely ran with it as well. Always next time ;)
 

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I run a loop system and love it, sooo much easier to control flow. Build is in my profile if your curious. My loop is also not connected to my sump it is 100% just for recirculation through the dt my loop pump is directly under the tank, sump and return pumps in the basement. I have 16 jets in my tank for flow each with individual valves to make spots have specific flow and also two returns.
 

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