Continuous QT failures. At my wits end...

[Elgringodiablo]

For some reason I have to learn everything the hard way.

Like most noobs, I started out not quarantining my fish. After about 8-10 healthy fish, something I added gave the tank what I thought was ick. In hindsight it was probably more likely velvet.

Half my fish died. Things would seem to clear up, then one by one anything I tried adding would get sick and die within a week. After killing 3 powder blue tangs in a row, I got fed up and bought a quarantine setup.

Spent 3 days getting my surviving fish out of my DT into QT. So I could go fallow for 76 days. Being paranoid about medicating, I decided to try hypo. Keep in mind, I thought I was dealing with ick.

Spent 3 days taking my SG down to 1.009. 12.5% daily water changes and Prime to help manage ammonia. Despite the Prime, water changes and seachem badge, I had an ammonia spike that I didn't act quickly enough on, lost all but 6 fish. Between that and having to deal with SG swings in the summer (even with an ATO) I was done with trying hypo.

Spent 7 days taking my SG back up to 1.024. Waited about a week and added two tangs and four wrasses to the group of survivors.

Everyone settled in nicely, eating, looking healthy, etc. After about a week I added prazipro. Everyone seemed okay, but was noticing some flashing and fish going to the cleaner wrasse.

Had planned to prophylactic treat with CP, but knew I was rolling the dice since the hippo tang and wrasses might not handle it well. The other option was cupramine, which also seemed like a gamble based on what I'd read.

Treated with the correct dosage of NLS Ick Shield powder. In less than a day one of the flasher wrasses started looking bad. Took him out into a separate QT. Looked like he had velvet, so I have him a fresh water dip. Shortly after he croaked.

This morning my hippo tang and second flasher wrasse didn't look too hot. I moved them to the other QT this afternoon. Hippo tang looks like he has velvet big time. Pretty sure they are both goners, so I put them back in the CP tank and crossing my fingers.

Did a quick check of the main QT. Found the powder blue tang dead. Was totally fine until I added CP. Never read anything about PBTs not tolerating CP, but can't find another explanation. Ammonia badge is yellow.

At this point I have lost almost as many fish in QT as I have in my main display. How is it that I know all these ******s who say every tank has ick and QT isn't worth it, who have great tanks with healthy delicate fish? I am starting to believe they are right.

What do I do? Not treat and deal with crazy losses or treat and deal with crazy losses? What about treating disease prone fish who don't respond well to CP or Copper?? I really get why so many people call it quits. Is this bad luck or what???

 

[clownfish chris]

I would not purchace anything new until you get through your fallow period. Once your QT is vacated drain it, bleach it, rince well, and dry well. Then take it slow with one fish of at maximum a pair per QT at a time. Use tank transfer method to treat for ich then simply observe while in QT for the next month. Treat specific desease only if observed and positively identified. I have never lost a fish to disease using this method.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

That sounds great, but TTM doesn't do anything about velvet or brooks. Additionally, I've heard anecdotal evidence of people's wrasses dying from the stress of TTM.

Knowing my luck, I'd spend a year plus slowly restocking my tank just to have something slip through and wipe the system again. Velvet doesn't seem very identifiable until it's too late.

Not saying your system won't work, just wish there was a safe way to be 100% sure.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

That sounds great, but TTM doesn't do anything about velvet or brooks. Additionally, I've heard anecdotal evidence of people's wrasses dying from the stress of TTM.

Knowing my luck, I'd spend a year plus slowly restocking my tank just to have something slip through and wipe the system again. Velvet doesn't seem very identifiable until it's too late.

Not saying your system won't work, just wish there was a safe way to be 100% sure.

Sorry to hear. That's totally frustrating and awful. I lost some fish too and didn't buy any for a long time. It's really hard.

Here's what I got.

Set up a QT long before you need it. Get it cycled and healthy not the set on your desk and put it away rush jobs. The internet seems to say is ok. It's not.
Think of it as your puppy's new home. Oh sorry I meant fish. Most fish live longer than puppies.


The new home is usually in black and white because pvc is. That's fine but you can actually get good rubber coral and plants cheap now. Fish actually like that stuff it's not just for the monkeys who look at the fish. It lowers stress. That's important.

Once the new puppy in the new home just feed and watch them. You don't have to give them chemotherapy. You might have to worm them. If it goes bad yea you might have to. But why assume the animal has cancer.

If the animal is healthy and very importantly not stressed because the two are so closely linked. It will do well and do better if there is a parasite that needs to be dealt with.
This is also called conditioning. It's very important to think of it this way IMO.
That fish used to be a wild animal. Now it's in a box and has never seen a box or the food you give it.

My new QT has live rock and sand. It's nice. I will also be using it for coral.
But I have the means to make a hospital tank in four minutes and know pretty well what I can do in the QT for the fish.

And there's IMO a distinct difference in QT and hospital. For one a hospital is stressfull for everyone involved.

 

[clownfish chris]

That sounds great, but TTM doesn't do anything about velvet or brooks. Additionally, I've heard anecdotal evidence of people's wrasses dying from the stress of TTM.

Knowing my luck, I'd spend a year plus slowly restocking my tank just to have something slip through and wipe the system again. Velvet doesn't seem very identifiable until it's too late.

Not saying your system won't work, just wish there was a safe way to be 100% sure.

Nothing is 100%. As saltyfilmfolks said, stress is highly influential on the health of a fish. TTM is stressful. Most wrasses burry themselves in sand to feel safe. For them, I put a cup of new sand in a Tupperware for them. I throw it away after each transfer. PVC elbows are also helpful for all fish.

Velvet, Brook, and most other deseases will show themselves within the month QT and should be treated there.

 

[melypr1985]

For some reason I have to learn everything the hard way.

Like most noobs, I started out not quarantining my fish. After about 8-10 healthy fish, something I added gave the tank what I thought was ick. In hindsight it was probably more likely velvet.

Half my fish died. Things would seem to clear up, then one by one anything I tried adding would get sick and die within a week. After killing 3 powder blue tangs in a row, I got fed up and bought a quarantine setup.

Spent 3 days getting my surviving fish out of my DT into QT. So I could go fallow for 76 days. Being paranoid about medicating, I decided to try hypo. Keep in mind, I thought I was dealing with ick.

Spent 3 days taking my SG down to 1.009. 12.5% daily water changes and Prime to help manage ammonia. Despite the Prime, water changes and seachem badge, I had an ammonia spike that I didn't act quickly enough on, lost all but 6 fish. Between that and having to deal with SG swings in the summer (even with an ATO) I was done with trying hypo.

Spent 7 days taking my SG back up to 1.024. Waited about a week and added two tangs and four wrasses to the group of survivors.

Everyone settled in nicely, eating, looking healthy, etc. After about a week I added prazipro. Everyone seemed okay, but was noticing some flashing and fish going to the cleaner wrasse.

Had planned to prophylactic treat with CP, but knew I was rolling the dice since the hippo tang and wrasses might not handle it well. The other option was cupramine, which also seemed like a gamble based on what I'd read.

Treated with the correct dosage of NLS Ick Shield powder. In less than a day one of the flasher wrasses started looking bad. Took him out into a separate QT. Looked like he had velvet, so I have him a fresh water dip. Shortly after he croaked.

This morning my hippo tang and second flasher wrasse didn't look too hot. I moved them to the other QT this afternoon. Hippo tang looks like he has velvet big time. Pretty sure they are both goners, so I put them back in the CP tank and crossing my fingers.

Did a quick check of the main QT. Found the powder blue tang dead. Was totally fine until I added CP. Never read anything about PBTs not tolerating CP, but can't find another explanation. Ammonia badge is yellow.

At this point I have lost almost as many fish in QT as I have in my main display. How is it that I know all these ******s who say every tank has ick and QT isn't worth it, who have great tanks with healthy delicate fish? I am starting to believe they are right.

What do I do? Not treat and deal with crazy losses or treat and deal with crazy losses? What about treating disease prone fish who don't respond well to CP or Copper?? I really get why so many people call it quits. Is this bad luck or what???

Hi there! Welcome to R2R! Like all things, QT can take some practice. The CP you used is questionable at best. When using it, you really want to get a Rx from a vet and have it filled at a pharmacy to be sure you have pure CP. Getting dosage correct using products with questionable purity is difficult and the results can't be relied on.

I'd suggest copper if you can't get pure CP. It's not difficult to use and test. Raising it slowly is the best course of action and most fish can get through it. TTM is my favorite method and as long as you keep them in observation for two weeks afterward you should spot anything else that needs addressing.

For you, though, I really do suggest Coppersafe and the API test kit. Go slow with it and only QT a couple fish at a time. It will take time to restock your tank, but going slow is always the best approach in this hobby.

Do you have any fish left in QT? What are they and how many?

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Hi there! Welcome to R2R! Like all things, QT can take some practice. The CP you used is questionable at best. When using it, you really want to get a Rx from a vet and have it filled at a pharmacy to be sure you have pure CP. Getting dosage correct using products with questionable purity is difficult and the results can't be relied on.

I'd suggest copper if you can't get pure CP. It's not difficult to use and test. Raising it slowly is the best course of action and most fish can get through it. TTM is my favorite method and as long as you keep them in observation for two weeks afterward you should spot anything else that needs addressing.

For you, though, I really do suggest Coppersafe and the API test kit. Go slow with it and only QT a couple fish at a time. It will take time to restock your tank, but going slow is always the best approach in this hobby.

Do you have any fish left in QT? What are they and how many?

As far as the CP goes, I am no expert, but everyone seems to think all the sources are questionable. Fishman's get bad reviews, eBay gets bad reviews, even getting pure CP from a vet sounds hit or miss. And even then, some fish just can't handle it. At least NLS is a company that specializes in fish and has a reputation to maintain.

As far as remaining fish:
- 5 pj cardinals
- 1 marble wrasse
- 1 salon wrasse
- 1 cleaner wrasse
- 1 small hippo tang who is likely a goner

The ones that died after adding CP:
- 1 powder blue tang
- 2 flasher wrasses

I feel like I have a good plan for improving my QT process from some of the info I've garnered but my biggest concerns are as follow:

- how do I tell velvet from ich on initial onset? I wanted to do preventative treatment for both, but it doesn't seem viable for certain species, so I may have to switch to TTM and only treat for velvet when it appears.

I am starting to feel like everyone is an "expert" and I am just doing it "wrong", meanwhile I am surrounded by conflicting opinions about what "right" is. Cupramine vs CopperSafe, TTM vs CP, etc, etc. My LFS told me "most fish that go into QT never come out of QT", and I totally see where he is coming from.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the feedback and will be making some tweaks to my process.

 

[clownfish chris]

You are on a national site asking advice from some very knowledgeable people however most people are experienced not experts. Different people have had different experiences. There are many different ways to do it right. The only PROVEN methods for ich and velvet that I know of are Copper and Hypo-salinity - both must be maintained at therapeutic levels exactly. TTM has been proven to treat ich.

I would read this thread by @Humblefish who IS an expert: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

 

[melypr1985]

As far as the CP goes, I am no expert, but everyone seems to think all the sources are questionable. Fishman's get bad reviews, eBay gets bad reviews, even getting pure CP from a vet sounds hit or miss. And even then, some fish just can't handle it. At least NLS is a company that specializes in fish and has a reputation to maintain.

That's just it. These products are not using CP that is medical grade and as pure as you can get. The way to do that is, as I explained, to get a Rx from a nice vet then get it filled at a pharmacy. There is a link to a place online that will fill it and has verified pure CP- but they have to have a Rx from a vet first.

- how do I tell velvet from ich on initial onset? I wanted to do preventative treatment for both, but it doesn't seem viable for certain species, so I may have to switch to TTM and only treat for velvet when it appears.

This is tricky. Sometimes it's obvious as the spots are usually small, dusty and look like sugar. Usually the spots with velvet are too numerous to count. With ick you're likely to be able to count them -in most cases- and they will be bigger like grains of salt. The behavior is always a giveaway. With velvet fish will often hide from the light and swim into the flow of powerheads or return lines. They also go downhill quickly -very quickly. With people who are new to QT, I usually advise treating all new fish (aside from a few that we know just can't handle it) with copper and prazi. It covers most bases like ick, velvet and flukes. Get good at that then try to branch out with other methods. Sometimes it simply takes practice to get it right.

I am starting to feel like everyone is an "expert" and I am just doing it "wrong", meanwhile I am surrounded by conflicting opinions about what "right" is. Cupramine vs CopperSafe, TTM vs CP, etc, etc. My LFS told me "most fish that go into QT never come out of QT", and I totally see where he is coming from.

I'm sorry that your LFS isn't being encouraging. You can do this. Read through the stickies here in this forum and make sure to ask all the questions you need to. We are here to help you succeed!

 

[melypr1985]

The only PROVEN methods for ich and velvet that I know of are Copper and Hypo-salinity

Hypo will NOT treat velvet. And honestly it doesn't treat all strains of ick either. There have been strains of ick proven to be hypo resistant.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

I think going forward, I will commit to one of the below plans.

In both options: New additions one or two at a time with exceptions for pairs or schools where they should be added at the same time.

Option 1: TTM all new additions. Observe for 2-3 weeks and treat with Prazipro after TTM is done. If velvet or brook occur, treat more aggressively with CP, Cupramine, or Formalin depending on fish and symptoms.

Option 2: Treat all new arrivals with CP or Copper except wrasses and tangs, who will have to be option 1.

Honestly, I knew it was a gamble to try CP on the hippo tang and flasher wrasses, and I think that would've been the case regardless of the CP source. The Powder Blue Tang was a surprise, since I'd never come across any reports of them dying from CP treatment.

I'm sure a good deal of this could have been avoided by solitary QT setup. I never noticed any issues until a couple days after the last fish was added.

Really not looking forward to doing water changes on the QT setups for the next year or two. Multiple water changes per week seems doable for a couple months, but ongoing TTM and frequent changes in holding tank with weak biofiltration sounds like a total nightmare. Sure I can get established biofiltration in my 40B QT, but as soon as I notice a parasite, gotta drain it and start over.

Are fish diseases more prevalent in the trade these days? I never heard of anyone QTing in the 90s when I first tried my hand at this hobby...

 

[Brew12]

I think going forward, I will commit to one of the below plans.

In both options: New additions one or two at a time with exceptions for pairs or schools where they should be added at the same time.

Option 1: TTM all new additions. Observe for 2-3 weeks and treat with Prazipro after TTM is done. If velvet or brook occur, treat more aggressively with CP, Cupramine, or Formalin depending on fish and symptoms.

Option 2: Treat all new arrivals with CP or Copper except wrasses and tangs, who will have to be option 1.

Honestly, I knew it was a gamble to try CP on the hippo tang and flasher wrasses, and I think that would've been the case regardless of the CP source. The Powder Blue Tang was a surprise, since I'd never come across any reports of them dying from CP treatment.

I'm sure a good deal of this could have been avoided by solitary QT setup. I never noticed any issues until a couple days after the last fish was added.

Really not looking forward to doing water changes on the QT setups for the next year or two. Multiple water changes per week seems doable for a couple months, but ongoing TTM and frequent changes in holding tank with weak biofiltration sounds like a total nightmare. Sure I can get established biofiltration in my 40B QT, but as soon as I notice a parasite, gotta drain it and start over.

Are fish diseases more prevalent in the trade these days? I never heard of anyone QTing in the 90s when I first tried my hand at this hobby...

I think that quarantining is much more difficult than maintaining a DT so I feel your pain. I tried TTM once and was successful but it was just too much work!

Now, I'm pretty much going the coppersafe/prazipro route unless I can't because of the species. This way I can maintain a fairly healthy bacteria population in my HOB and not worry about ammonia nearly as much.

It seems like Humblefish and Melypr are busier than ever on these forums. Not sure how that relates to the fish trade overall but it could be that more people are asking for help as they learn about online forums.

 

[melypr1985]

I think going forward, I will commit to one of the below plans.

In both options: New additions one or two at a time with exceptions for pairs or schools where they should be added at the same time.

Option 1: TTM all new additions. Observe for 2-3 weeks and treat with Prazipro after TTM is done. If velvet or brook occur, treat more aggressively with CP, Cupramine, or Formalin depending on fish and symptoms.

Option 2: Treat all new arrivals with CP or Copper except wrasses and tangs, who will have to be option 1.

Honestly, I knew it was a gamble to try CP on the hippo tang and flasher wrasses, and I think that would've been the case regardless of the CP source. The Powder Blue Tang was a surprise, since I'd never come across any reports of them dying from CP treatment.

I'm sure a good deal of this could have been avoided by solitary QT setup. I never noticed any issues until a couple days after the last fish was added.

Really not looking forward to doing water changes on the QT setups for the next year or two. Multiple water changes per week seems doable for a couple months, but ongoing TTM and frequent changes in holding tank with weak biofiltration sounds like a total nightmare. Sure I can get established biofiltration in my 40B QT, but as soon as I notice a parasite, gotta drain it and start over.

Are fish diseases more prevalent in the trade these days? I never heard of anyone QTing in the 90s when I first tried my hand at this hobby...

These are good options. You'll find that as you get used to doing it, and used to what to do when things pop up, you'll be more comfortable with running more than one fish at a time. It wont take long either I'm sure. You'll find a method that works best for you and get to be good at it.

Yes, Velvet is rampant right now. Ick has been steadily climbing in numbers and you have to assume that most any fish you buy will have it so QT is very important for the person that wants to keep his display disease and parasite free. Never trust anybody's QT but your own.

One last thing, bacterial infections happen. They will happen in QT or the display both. Don't get discourage by them, just do your best and know that you're still learning and figuring this all out. You can always post up here and ask questions. We will always do our best to help.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Feel free to add this to the anecdotal evidence that flasher wrasses and hippo tangs don't handle CP well. Or at least NLS Ick Shield Powder CP. Color of the dead fish looked fine. Think I mistook their paleness from severe stress for velvet. Guessing the NLS CP also killed the powder blue tang, but really no way to be sure.

 

[Debramb]

I think going forward, I will commit to one of the below plans.

In both options: New additions one or two at a time with exceptions for pairs or schools where they should be added at the same time.

Option 1: TTM all new additions. Observe for 2-3 weeks and treat with Prazipro after TTM is done. If velvet or brook occur, treat more aggressively with CP, Cupramine, or Formalin depending on fish and symptoms.

Option 2: Treat all new arrivals with CP or Copper except wrasses and tangs, who will have to be option 1.

Honestly, I knew it was a gamble to try CP on the hippo tang and flasher wrasses, and I think that would've been the case regardless of the CP source. The Powder Blue Tang was a surprise, since I'd never come across any reports of them dying from CP treatment.

I'm sure a good deal of this could have been avoided by solitary QT setup. I never noticed any issues until a couple days after the last fish was added.

Really not looking forward to doing water changes on the QT setups for the next year or two. Multiple water changes per week seems doable for a couple months, but ongoing TTM and frequent changes in holding tank with weak biofiltration sounds like a total nightmare. Sure I can get established biofiltration in my 40B QT, but as soon as I notice a parasite, gotta drain it and start over.

Are fish diseases more prevalent in the trade these days? I never heard of anyone QTing in the 90s when I first tried my hand at this hobby...

I know right!!! Me neither, 1980's here!! Never even heard of QT seriously till I learned here from experienced AND experts! (July 2016) everything has changed a lot, still some people who don't spend thousands lol. Just got QT stuff ready to go-I'll never just "add" again. Maybe it's karma that you found this site with tons of support you can trust! Stay Calm, Keep Reefing!

 

[Elgringodiablo]

On a more positive note, and perhaps I am speaking too soon, but the PJ Cardinals, Marble Wrasse (all of whom have survived both previous crashes), Salon Wrasse and Cleaner Wrasse are all hanging in there well and appear to be eating. Even the cleaner wrasse is eating mysis, nori and picking at pellets.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Quick update. My Salon Wrasse died after about 12 days of CP. Pretty sure he just stopped eating and starved himself. Marble Wrasse and Cleaner Wrasse are still hanging tough (Day 19). Any future wrasses and tangs will have to be TTM and observe, no copper or CP unless I'm pretty certain they have Velvet or Brook.