Coral bleaching w low par?!!!

[neo1738]

I'm at my wits end with this. I have tried a few times to grow some coral mostly lps supposed "easy" stuff. I have gotten parameters good except little high on nitrate and phosp but rest are stable. I upgraded from Current USA Orbit Pro 2x led strips to Kessil ap9x x 2 lights. I've lowered photoperiod, lowered intensity, restarted acclimation mode a few times (like 3), and even bought a par meter showing 50-100 par bottom frag rack and 200-250 par 6" down but still they are bleaching on the top. Frags are in rack at bottom of tank. Tissue peeling back on candy cane, bleaching on platy and starting to bleach on others. Favites and chalice doing well.

Parameters
T -77.8
Amm -0
Nitrate - 5-10
Phosphate - 0.3
dKH - 10.2
pH - 8.2
Calc - 423
Mag - 1360

Kessil Settings peak photo trying to get to (haven't gotten there because been in acclimation mode restarted each week for 3 weeks). I couldn't grow corraline before kessil upgrade now getting it all over power heads and other plastics which I see as a good sign.

Color 20 Int 50 V 50 R 10 G 0 for 3 hrs in afternoon half that at 9am and half at 6pm off at 8pm on at 8am 12hr total.

For flow Inhave 2x Current USA 2100gph power heads at 30% and 20% for my 4ft 100gal tank. Great flow but not too much from what I can tell.

I do dose No3Po4-x daily, have a skimmer which keeps up, dose cal daily to keep up and mag every 2-3 days. Some swings but not normally more than 50 pts. dkh and ph very stable. Spot feed reef roids 1x/week w flow way down not more bcI know nutrients already high.

Here are some pics.


Any advice?! Or should I give up on corals? I'm at a total loss.

 

[Goby Bryant]

You could lower your phosphates. If your lips does I’d get softies.

 

[Reefer Matt]

Try dipping and see if any flatworms come off. If not, try lowering par some more.

 

[neo1738]

Try dipping and see if any flatworms come off. If not, try lowering par some more.

Will try, all corals from WWC should be pretty clean system.

 

[Reefer Matt]

Will try, all corals from WWC should be pretty clean system.

I suggest dipping every coral you ever get before it goes into the tank, no matter where you get them.

 

[neo1738]

I suggest dipping every coral you ever get before it goes into the tank, no matter where you get them.

WWC actually recommends dipping after about 18-24hr as corals are stressed from transport. But point taken.

 

[ChiCity]

you should really try lowering
your dkh to the 8 to low 9’s range…

having 5 no3 and .03 po4 is no bueno with 10.2dkh

 

[bruno3047]

Bleaching doesn’t necessarily mean the lighting is too bright. Corals sometimes bleach when they’re not happy, for whatever reason. Having said that, I’ve found that many LPS have much less lighting tolerance than is generally accepted. As others have suggested, try cutting the par.

 

[homegrowncichlid]

hmm, at 50 to 100 PAR, you're definitely in the safe "acclimation" zone, I'm surprised they are bleaching at that level. Though it's possible, though unlikely, that the vendor you bought them from have them under even less PAR. There's one local shop, where the frag rack is under such low par, that I can't adapt them to my lighting. It took me 2 purchases to figure out how dim their lighting was. I bought this very bright, almost white/yellow acro, a tint of blue on the skin and purple polyps. The frag was fully encrusted, so I'm thinking GREAT find. Well I did my standard acclimation, and it changed into an ugly green... well not worth my time. heh. Well, once I saw it changing into it's true colors, I accelerated the acclimation, not really caring about it, then it bleached out and died. Weeks later, I went back to the store and did it again, since they were still more frags of the same coral there. That's when I came to the conclusion that they were growing acros under lower lighting than my lowest setting, (ie 30%, which is too low to grow my other SPS). I also assume they grew them under full spectrum, not actinics, which would have less PAR per watt, and trying to adapt them to my actinics was going to take a very long time.
My suggestion to you is to use your PAR meter at the shop and see what the original lighting conditions are. Then see if the frags that you left in the store, when you bought yours, are still there and doing well. That would be the control group.

 

[neo1738]

you should really try lowering
your dkh to the 8 to low 9’s range…

having 5 no3 and .03 po4 is no bueno with 10.2dkh

5-10 nitrates and 0.3 not .03 po4.

 

[neo1738]

hmm, at 50 to 100 PAR, you're definitely in the safe "acclimation" zone, I'm surprised they are bleaching at that level. Though it's possible, though unlikely, that the vendor you bought them from have them under even less PAR. There's one local shop, where the frag rack is under such low par, that I can't adapt them to my lighting. It took me 2 purchases to figure out how dim their lighting was. I bought this very bright, almost white/yellow acro, a tint of blue on the skin and purple polyps. The frag was fully encrusted, so I'm thinking GREAT find. Well I did my standard acclimation, and it changed into an ugly green... well not worth my time. heh. Well, once I saw it changing into it's true colors, I accelerated the acclimation, not really caring about it, then it bleached out and died. Weeks later, I went back to the store and did it again, since they were still more frags of the same coral there. That's when I came to the conclusion that they were growing acros under lower lighting than my lowest setting, (ie 30%, which is too low to grow my other SPS). I also assume they grew them under full spectrum, not actinics, which would have less PAR per watt, and trying to adapt them to my actinics was going to take a very long time.
My suggestion to you is to use your PAR meter at the shop and see what the original lighting conditions are. Then see if the frags that you left in the store, when you bought yours, are still there and doing well. That would be the control group.

thanks for info, bought from WWC online who use XR30 Radion G5s

 

[IslandLifeReef]

I'm at my wits end with this. I have tried a few times to grow some coral mostly lps supposed "easy" stuff. I have gotten parameters good except little high on nitrate and phosp but rest are stable. I upgraded from Current USA Orbit Pro 2x led strips to Kessil ap9x x 2 lights. I've lowered photoperiod, lowered intensity, restarted acclimation mode a few times (like 3), and even bought a par meter showing 50-100 par bottom frag rack and 200-250 par 6" down but still they are bleaching on the top. Frags are in rack at bottom of tank. Tissue peeling back on candy cane, bleaching on platy and starting to bleach on others. Favites and chalice doing well.

Parameters
T -77.8
Amm -0
Nitrate - 5-10
Phosphate - 0.3
dKH - 10.2
pH - 8.2
Calc - 423
Mag - 1360

Kessil Settings peak photo trying to get to (haven't gotten there because been in acclimation mode restarted each week for 3 weeks). I couldn't grow corraline before kessil upgrade now getting it all over power heads and other plastics which I see as a good sign.

Color 20 Int 50 V 50 R 10 G 0 for 3 hrs in afternoon half that at 9am and half at 6pm off at 8pm on at 8am 12hr total.

For flow Inhave 2x Current USA 2100gph power heads at 30% and 20% for my 4ft 100gal tank. Great flow but not too much from what I can tell.

I do dose No3Po4-x daily, have a skimmer which keeps up, dose cal daily to keep up and mag every 2-3 days. Some swings but not normally more than 50 pts. dkh and ph very stable. Spot feed reef roids 1x/week w flow way down not more bcI know nutrients already high.

Here are some pics.


Any advice?! Or should I give up on corals? I'm at a total loss.

I am going to go against the majority here and say that your PAR is too low if you are keeping those frags at the bottom. If the peak PAR is between 50 and 100, and you are also in acclimation mode, you are probably starving them.

Your PO4 isn't just a little high, it is really high if it is truly 0.3 ppm. It should be between 0.03 and 0.1 ppm.

Flow is also probably low if you are running those pumps at 20% and 30%. You are barely getting 10 times the volume of your tank. You should be closer to 30 times the volume for flow.

If you Calcium is fluctuating 50 points, that isn't stable. With the corals you have, you should not need to dose to keep Calcium up.

I agree that Alk at 10.2 is higher than I like. I prefer closer to 8 dKh. That said, many have success at the higher Alk ranges, so YMMV.

Hope this helps.

 

[vetteguy53081]

May not be bleaching but polyp retraction and upset coral. Some typical causes for this is :
- Alkalinity spike
- Temperature spike
- Salinity spike
- Low dissolved oxygen
- Poor water quality related with phosphate levels up to 5 ppm
- Change in water flow
- Additions of sand
- Changes in brand of salt
- Bad test kits giving faulty results
- Levels of minor elements such as Iodine, Potassium, Strontium
- Light intensity
- Changes in water flow
- Addition of new corals
- Pesticides
- Airborne Contaminants or sprays

 

[neo1738]

May not be bleaching but polyp retraction and upset coral. Some typical causes for this is :
- Alkalinity spike
- Temperature spike
- Salinity spike
- Low dissolved oxygen
- Poor water quality related with phosphate levels up to 5 ppm
- Change in water flow
- Additions of sand
- Changes in brand of salt
- Bad test kits giving faulty results
- Levels of minor elements such as Iodine, Potassium, Strontium
- Light intensity
- Changes in water flow
- Addition of new corals
- Pesticides
- Airborne Contaminants or sprays

Thanks no change in alkalinity, temp, saline, probably not oxygen run skimmer 24/7 ph stable, phosphate levels are higher thought for lps not as much of an issue as sps, flow no change, no new sand, no salt change, hannah and salifert kits, had ICP test done 2 mo back those were all normal, light as described above and big part of the OP see if they actually need more or keep lowering, these are the new corals, no pesicides I know of and no known airborne issues.

 

[neo1738]

I am going to go against the majority here and say that your PAR is too low if you are keeping those frags at the bottom. If the peak PAR is between 50 and 100, and you are also in acclimation mode, you are probably starving them.

Your PO4 isn't just a little high, it is really high if it is truly 0.3 ppm. It should be between 0.03 and 0.1 ppm.

Flow is also probably low if you are running those pumps at 20% and 30%. You are barely getting 10 times the volume of your tank. You should be closer to 30 times the volume for flow.

If you Calcium is fluctuating 50 points, that isn't stable. With the corals you have, you should not need to dose to keep Calcium up.

I agree that Alk at 10.2 is higher than I like. I prefer closer to 8 dKh. That said, many have success at the higher Alk ranges, so YMMV.

Hope this helps.

50 pts would be a max swing, usually within about 20 pts but to that effect I do have a doser arriving tomorrow to get cal and mag on steady levels. When I turn pumps higher seems like too much flow, BTA hides, fish aren't happy, etc. Those pumps are over 4k gph in a 100gal tank (really 80gal water rest rock and sand and 20gal in sump). Not sure how to do that without ticking everything off but I'll try to up flow to about 50% each slowly.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

WWC actually recommends dipping after about 18-24hr as corals are stressed from transport. But point taken.

I've personally had frag's replaced from them due to pests, so dip before they go in a main system that is not intended to "catch" all incoming pests

 

[Rmckoy]

Any time we see Alk at higher levels there should be sufficient nutrients to support it .
Higher Alk will try to speed up calcification but the nutrients are starving the flesh from growing at the same rate

I’d consider increasing nutrients or … the better option would be to lower alkalinity closer to nsw levels .

fwiw for the first 10 years I had a hard time keeping any Zoas , torch , and chalice alive .
trumpet coral was always one I have trouble with .

 

[neo1738]

Any time we see Alk at higher levels there should be sufficient nutrients to support it .
Higher Alk will try to speed up calcification but the nutrients are starving the flesh from growing at the same rate

I’d consider increasing nutrients or … the better option would be to lower alkalinity closer to nsw levels .

fwiw for the first 10 years I had a hard time keeping any Zoas , torch , and chalice alive .
trumpet coral was always one I have trouble with .

I already have higher nutrients though so shouldn't be a problem no? Also 10.2 is right in middle of what is generally recommended 8-12 dkh.

 

[Rmckoy]

I already have higher nutrients though so shouldn't be a problem no? Also 10.2 is right in middle of what is generally recommended 8-12 dkh.

8-12 is a huge range …

nsw is 7-7.5
At 7.5 dkh I maintain my nitrates at 5ppm
Phosphates are 0.05 - 0.08 and stable .
salinity , temp , cal , Alk , even nitrates never fluctuate

where 8 would be safer and still give some buffer

 

[Rmckoy]

I already have higher nutrients though so shouldn't be a problem no? Also 10.2 is right in middle of what is generally recommended 8-12 dkh.

There is a sweet spot for every reef as they are all different .
finding the perfect numbers for your system and those that will maintain stable is far more important