Cost Of Equipment Is Out Of Hand

[Michael Rodriguez]

I do agree that ecotech has great customer service. However, a lot of black box LED lights are decent quality and so cheap that you could purchase a backup.

It is up to the customer to decide what good customer service is worth. I wouldn't pay more than 250ish for a fixture but I am cheap.

 

[Reef man 89]

All the ecotech talk just got me to go look at there products and noticed everything went up in price. When did this all happen?

 

[Kengar]

All the ecotech talk just got me to go look at there products and noticed everything went up in price. When did this all happen?

there are other posts about it. attributable to tariffs, apparently. I will keep my mouth shut on that one......

 

[Kengar]

@yungreefer2410
Basically what @Kengar just said is...Don't hold your breath.

Nicely summarized!

 

[joshwaggs]

It’s posts like this that make a great case for a post rating system so ridiculous posts like this can just get karma bombed into oblivion.

You don’t want cheap equipment, you want high end equipment for a price you can afford to pay.

There’s plenty of equipment out there for just about every single price range. Your problem is you want the Ferrari to be the same price as the Mustang. It doesn’t work that way in the real world.

So sorry that some of us haven’t been on here for years and have seen a multitude of these threads. It was a rant. You could always try not clicking on the thread that you don’t want to read. I do it all the time.

 

[Kengar]

I know somewhere along this thread last night, people were incredulous over the difference in price between the MP 60s and the MP 40s versus difference in price between MP 40s and MP 10s. There is a lot of assumption in that viewpoint, which you and I simply aren't in position to verify. Given the different thickness of glass the 60s can work through, I would not be surprised at all if the magnets used in the 60 are made from different, more expensive materials. They could also be trickier to control, what with greater mass/angular momentum of the propeller and magnet (although I would think control difficulties could be handled via the firmware or other programming). We just can't assume it's a straight scale-up problem....

 

[Reefer1978]

I know somewhere along this thread last night, people were incredulous over the difference in price between the MP 60s and the MP 40s versus difference in price between MP 40s and MP 10s. There is a lot of assumption in that viewpoint, which you and I simply aren't in position to verify. Given the different thickness of glass the 60s can work through, I would not be surprised at all if the magnets used in the 60 are made from different, more expensive materials. They could also be trickier to control, what with greater mass/angular momentum of the propeller and magnet (although I would think control difficulties could be handled via the firmware or other programming). We just can't assume it's a straight scale-up problem....

(Sarcasm warning --- was called an *** earlier) Sure we can, we are all experts powered by Google.

 

[Kengar]

My wife and I started our reefing in the middle 90's, got out to enjoy others hobbies. Got back into reefing a few years ago and could not,...believe how expensive the hobby has gotten ! Especially with lighting. Fish and corals have also sky rocketing. We almost thought, no, too expensive, but it's just such a beautiful not too. We're just taking it slow.

A friend and I took apart one of the largest and expensive lighting on the market, and we were shocked just how cheaply built they are.
It's mostly in the programming electronics, but still no reason why to charge so much money per light ! The reason,...people are paying for what ever aquarists want to pay, and we do ! When I see people that have 4 to 8 (+) led lighting systems over their tank, I wonder how they figure the price just for lighting, then everything else ?

I realize hobbies can be very expensive, like us that went winged sprint car racing, but we had a lot of sponsors to help out, unlike REEFING ! lol....I've seen a wonderful,...600g reef that he had $50,000 in his setup. We had $30,000 in our race car operation, without sponsors, but they paid almost all of our $30,000 engine. Without them, there's no way we could afford it.

Wish we could with our reef hobby ! lol......

Hmmmmmmm......... maybe the HOA would let me post a sign signing Reefing Sponsored by EcoTech and Neptune.......

 

[Kengar]

Sure we can, we are all experts powered by Google.

let's not forget wikepedia, too.....

To be fair to the OP, I think there are some things that are crazy expensive, and I think some of the cost is due to the Apple-esque wow-factor of some of the toys. There's another post on here about doing things simply/manually, so the hobby CAN be participated in for less if you want to. Doing things over time also helps....... I am just about to finish my 250 build almost three years since the tank was delivered. It took two years to fix the crappy workmanship Coast to Coast turned out (getting clean silicone lines was a challenge), and I've been buying equipment a little bit at a time over the years, so that the budget could absorb things as I've gone along

 

[amazongb]

I've just read this entire thread, and I think the core of the issue is MAP pricing. It's my understanding that MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) serves to protect small distributors (LFS stores in this case) against large distributors (BRS, Marine Depot etc), and not cheapen the brand. It also allows both small and large to make the same profit on each item sold.. a level playing field for all. If you can walk into your local LFS and pay the same price as you would pay at BRS, why wouldn't you?

MAP pricing does not mean you can't negotiate with BRS or any other vendor for a lower price, it means they can't advertise it lower. So the best bet is to negotiate with your LFS on a better deal. It's good for you and good for the LFS.

We should start a new thread that focuses on MAP pricing, hoping we get some input from those that sell the products and gain some insight into the pros and cons.

 

[joshwaggs]

I’ll add one last thing; and hopefully this thread gets locked or deleted, after.

The point to my rant was just that, a rant. I was annoyed that such simple hardware and technology was being sold at such insane prices. Maybe some of it is justified, but I’m willing to bet that most of it isn’t.
I haven’t been around REEF2REEF long enough to know that there has apparently been tons of threads like mine in the past (wonder why). That said, and after seeing all the horse beating GIFs, I am surprised to see that this thread has exploded to over 30 pages, over three thousand views, and over 300 comments. This subject is obviously very alive. Regardless, you will always have the few types of people out there that will argue anything, those that will flame everything, those that will turn the whole thing into a political debate, and finally, those that have reasonable views and just want to offer their opinions.

This being the internet, I should have expected most of this; but I definitely learned that the reefing community is no different than any other.
That said, I will kindly step away and request someone lock or delete this thread.

Thanks

 

[Dom]

I was first exposed to this hobby when I was 9 years old. My friend's dad had a system set up in his den and I loved to look at it. It was 75 gallons and looked better than most tanks I see today.

There was nothing special about lighting, no temperature controllers, used HOB filters, no ATO or dosing.

We spend the money on the fancy equipment because we are brain washed into thinking it is necessary and won't experience any success without the stuff.

To this I say we only have to look as far as Dr. Sanjay Joshi and the success he's had. Mind you, I am not speaking of his well known 500 gallon setup. But I recall seeing a video where he has a much smaller tank which thrives without any fancy equipment. The tank I am thinking of doesn't even have a protein skimmer and is so perfectly balanced, I don't think he even does water changes!

My point: you can have great success in this hobby without spending a lot of cash.

Here is the link to the tank I am speaking of:

 

[scriptmonkey]

@joshwaggs do not take it personally, threads like these make the internet great, it keeps the dialogue alive. We can all disagree yet we all can be brought together for the love of the hobby. Stuff that gets brought up in these cause most of us to share experiences and broadens horizons in terms of equipment. While I was one of the ones cracking jokes about deseased horses, it was just that, A joke. So...dont be a quitter, stick to your guns and let's keep the debate alive!

 

[joshwaggs]

-

 

[Lousybreed]

Where do you get $50 to $100? Your credibility shot straight out the window with that comment.

Brandon

Really? I hope you aren’t using retail prices for this. Speaking with the owner of LED Supply, at quantities above 1,000 you are looking at less than a dollar for each of the LED’s. I would say, to be very conservative let’s say $50. And you can go direct at that volume so it’s peobably less. Heatsink $5-7, power supply $8-10, Bluetooth or wireless connection $2, $10 for case and lenses, dimmable drivers $15. We are at $90ish. Add $10 for assembly and packaging. $100. Again at the volumes they are buying at, these are high. These prices are for 100-200 units each. I say they come in at $80.

 

[Silver14SS]

Does the existence of more expensive options somehow impact the less expensive options? I don't understand how product options over a range of prices is a bad thing.

 

[gobble]

I've just read this entire thread, and I think the core of the issue is MAP pricing. It's my understanding that MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) serves to protect small distributors (LFS stores in this case) against large distributors (BRS, Marine Depot etc), and not cheapen the brand. It also allows both small and large to make the same profit on each item sold.. a level playing field for all. If you can walk into your local LFS and pay the same price as you would pay at BRS, why wouldn't you?

MAP pricing does not mean you can't negotiate with BRS or any other vendor for a lower price, it means they can't advertise it lower. So the best bet is to negotiate with your LFS on a better deal. It's good for you and good for the LFS.

We should start a new thread that focuses on MAP pricing, hoping we get some input from those that sell the products and gain some insight into the pros and cons.

MAP pricing is a joke. I can't think of anything else I'm into where the vendors fix the pricing the way they do in this hobby. Good thing is a little looking around and you can find all sorts of people willing to sell new high end equipment (Ecotech, Neptune, Red Sea, etc.) at decent discounts off MAP. I haven't purchased anything expensive from the like of BRS in quite some time for that reason.

 

[NeveSSL]

Really? I hope you aren’t using retail prices for this. Speaking with the owner of LED Supply, at quantities above 1,000 you are looking at less than a dollar for each of the LED’s. I would say, to be very conservative let’s say $50. And you can go direct at that volume so it’s peobably less. Heatsink $5-7, power supply $8-10, Bluetooth or wireless connection $2, $10 for case and lenses, dimmable drivers $15. We are at $90ish. Add $10 for assembly and packaging. $100. Again at the volumes they are buying at, these are high. These prices are for 100-200 units each. I say they come in at $80.

You're completely ignoring R&D as well as all of the app and firmware development. Easily doubles your estimation of hardware. Easily.

Brandon

 

[Lousybreed]

Really? I hope you aren’t using retail prices for this. Speaking with the owner of LED Supply, at quantities above 1,000 you are looking at less than a dollar for each of the LED’s. I would say, to be very conservative let’s say $50. And you can go direct at that volume so it’s peobably less. Heatsink $5-7, power supply $8-10, Bluetooth or wireless connection $2, $10 for case and lenses, dimmable drivers $15. We are at $90ish. Add $10 for assembly and packaging. $100. Again at the volumes they are buying at, these are high. These prices are for 100-200 units each. I say they come in at $80.

Let’s add $20 per unit for product development and marketing, $15 for tariffs, $10 for misc charges. So a total of $145 for the unit. And they sell for 840.

 

[Lousybreed]

You're completely ignoring R&D as well as all of the app and firmware development. Easily doubles your estimation of hardware. Easily.

Brandon

I was referring to manufacturing only for $100. See my later post.