Cryptic zone - do you believe in it ?

[Timfish]

I've been fascinated with the idea of cryptic refugia since reading about Tyree's "Zonal" methodology a couple decades ago. Following the research being done on reefs it's amazing how well some of his ideas have been substantiated and shown how critical cryptic sponges are to a healthy reef ecosystem. Here's some links for those interested:

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (Sponges remove labile DOC 1000x faster than bacterioplankton.) (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)
https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf
Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4191
Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381
Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals. (The link should work but cut and paste if not.)
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._dissolved_organic_matter_via_the_sponge_loop
Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279061640_2013_deGoeij_Science_Sponge_loop
Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934968/
The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
https://search.proquest.com/openvie...9d1e5/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y

 

[najer]

And tunicates, sort of similar?! ;)

 

[Abhishek]

@Abhishek do you still have the cryptic zone up and running? I want to put one in myself. Thinking of getting a 30 gallon rubbermaid bin and adding to my system. Do you see dry rock being a problem in the cryptic zone? My system is 2 years old and I have sponges everywhere in my overflow, sump, etc.

Wow I can’t believe the 2 year old thread is still kicking :)

Well I took down my 150 gallon tank as I moved to a new house but yes I modified my cryptic with all seeds from Tyree , and small rubble sod live rocks from Adam at battlecorals and Jared at RMF when I set up the 150 .
The thing is I already had 10 year old Fiji and Tonga live rocks that I used for cryptic for the 150 .
Am not saying it can’t be done with dry rocks but it would take atleast a year to mature and make any impact .

I would definitely recommend small cryptic packs that Tyree sells - amazing stuffs and will definitely help in setting up the cryptic zone .
And definitely try and get your hands on rocks from others’ systems that are running over 10 years . I only get it from people I trust and hence when I buy acros from Jared and Adam - I also buy small rubbles from them

 

[JCOLE]

I've been fascinated with the idea of cryptic refugia since reading about Tyree's "Zonal" methodology a couple decades ago. Following the research being done on reefs it's amazing how well some of his ideas have been substantiated and shown how critical cryptic sponges are to a healthy reef ecosystem. Here's some links for those interested:

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)
https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf
Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4191
Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381
Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2435.12758
Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279061640_2013_deGoeij_Science_Sponge_loop
Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934968/
The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
https://search.proquest.com/openvie...9d1e5/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y

Great info! Thank you.

 

[Victor_C3]

You’re a touch ahead of me in the setup of cryptic filtration. I’ve been reading and planning the current system I started building a few months back for years and I’ve read quite a few articles and books on the subject, including Steve Tyree’s book CMAT volume 2.

I’ve long thought that cryptic filtration coupled with the availability of a variety of live food sources would be the key to keeping NPS gorgonians. With my current system, I plan to get SPS corals establishes and growing for about a year or so then I will try some of the gorgonians I’ve always been in awe of.

Refer to my build thread for more information and details on my setup and progress. I very much appreciate seeing what others are doing with this as well. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Abhishek]

Oh I forgot to post how my cryptic looked just before I took it down for the move to the new house . The music is annoying though !!!

 

[Rick.45cal]

Oh I forgot to post how my cryptic looked just before I took it down for the move to the new house . The music is annoying though !!!

That’s amazing, even with the music!

 

[Abhishek]

That’s amazing, even with the music!

Well it’s only amazing in the cryptic not the tank like yours ;)

 

[Rick.45cal]

Well it’s only amazing in the cryptic not the tank like yours ;)

Give your new one a couple years and it will be better than mine! You’re on the right track. You’re making me want to start a cryptic zone now.

 

[Paul B]

I run a reverse undergravel filter so the entire bottom of my tank, under the filter plates is a cryptic zone. My tank has more sponges than corals, they cover everything and I also have no problem with excess food as the sponges, feather dusters, worms etc, in the cryptic areas convert everything.

 

[Abhishek]

I run a reverse undergravel filter so the entire bottom of my tank, under the filter plates is a cryptic zone. My tank has more sponges than corals, they cover everything and I also have no problem with excess food as the sponges, feather dusters, worms etc, in the cryptic areas convert everything.

Well your tank of 40 years old is probably a dream that I can achieve only in my next birth :D
No amount of work on my part can replicate what you have done with yours

 

[drawman]

Looks great! I have been thinking of doing the exact same thing recently so glad to hear it's working well!

 

[naterealbig]

Oh I forgot to post how my cryptic looked just before I took it down for the move to the new house . The music is annoying though !!!

Was any amount of light available to this cryptic section on a regular basis?

 

[Abhishek]

Was any amount of light available to this cryptic section on a regular basis?

Well mine was completely in darkness . Only for the sake of video I have lifted the cover to film it .

I have tried with both complete cryptic and semi cryptic and I always felt that complete darkness made a difference in sponge growth . With light I had a few patches of cyano and green hair algae issues which tend to slow down their growth .

So if doing cryptic I always prefer complete darkness and extremely low flow

 

[Paul B]

No amount of work on my part can replicate what you have done with yours

It's probably the lack of work. :p

 

[Victor_C3]

Well mine was completely in darkness . Only for the sake of video I have lifted the cover to film it .

I have tried with both complete cryptic and semi cryptic and I always felt that complete darkness made a difference in sponge growth . With light I had a few patches of cyano and green hair algae issues which tend to slow down their growth .

So if doing cryptic I always prefer complete darkness and extremely low flow

What sort of turnover did you have in your cryptic area? I’m currently pulling 1-2x turnover through my cryptic area. It sound way too low, but that is on par with what Tyree mentioned in his writings. I’m just curious to hear what others are doing.

Thanks,
Victor

 

[ectoaesthetics]

Big fan of a cryptic zone. I have a tiny 8 gallon cadlights AIO. Leaves about 4.5-5 gallons in the display and the rest in a back sump. I have a cryptic/semi-cryptic zone back there as well as a fuge. It meant moving the pump out of the pump slot and into the fuge area. This created a very still segregated portion of the rear chamber. Grows sponge like crazy.

It is my belief that we are overlooking some key principles in our reefs. The sponge loop is a big one. The others IMO are plankton and plaques. I find it fascinating that the ocean is totally dependent on the fundamental bedrock of plankton -yet we practically ignore it. At best some add freeze dried versions a few of times a week. Yes I do realize that there are a few of us total weirdos that add live plankton daily (and yes I’m in that crowd). And lastly microbial plaques. We have finally started to scratch the surface on the benefits of bacteria. But we pretend like they live alone. That we just add “this one” to make a better tank. Most of that micro world exists in complex communities. It is my honest belief that the difference between a 6 month old tank and a 2 year old tank is sponge and plaque.

 

[najer]

Big fan of a cryptic zone. I have a tiny 8 gallon cadlights AIO. Leaves about 4.5-5 gallons in the display and the rest in a back sump. I have a cryptic/semi-cryptic zone back there as well as a fuge. It meant moving the pump out of the pump slot and into the fuge area. This created a very still segregated portion of the rear chamber. Grows sponge like crazy.

It is my belief that we are overlooking some key principles in our reefs. The sponge loop is a big one. The others IMO are plankton and plaques. I find it fascinating that the ocean is totally dependent on the fundamental bedrock of plankton -yet we practically ignore it. At best some add freeze dried versions a few of times a week. And lastly microbial plaques. We have finally started to scratch the surface on the benefits of bacteria. But we pretend like they live alone. That we just add “this one” to make a better tank. Most of that micro world exists in complex communities. It is my honest belief that the difference between a 6 month old tank and a 2 year old tank is sponge and plaque.

... and feed live phyto! :)

 

[Timfish]

And tunicates, sort of similar?! ;)

Tunicates are pretty cool animals and they certainly play their role and I'm always glad to see them. What surprised everyone with de Geoij's research was the phenomenally fast mitosis rate of about 8 hours. But even with such a high cellular division rate the sponges studied didn't grow but sloughed off cellular debris as detritus that immediately became part of the food web. Tunicates have not yet been shown doing the same.

 

[najer]