Cycle problems

[brandon429]

nobody has ever, ever met nitrite toxicity in a cycling reef tank or there’d be a link

 

[brandon429]

Yep it’s cycled or his fed fish would be dead, in gray stinky water.


post pics of this reef.


the pics will show clear water and living fish, for a few months :) (disease is the real killer in cycles, not ammonia or nitrite)

this reef was cycled due to bottle bac and dilution. Given this much wait time, he can do water changes and the bac will remain adhered to surfaces. He can continue reefing and won’t report losses (yet) because that’s a low dilution, bottle bac setup already met submersion times from Dr Reefs bottle bac thread.

Lasse clearly pointed out the feed aspect of these quick cycles: the feed we add may be even more of a system tax than the actual fish respiration waste output. This tank has been fed what, about ten times or twenty now? How many total feedings have taken place?

post pics.


this system cannot produce even a tenth of the waste needed to become problematic nitrite.


fish in cycles work because dilution and bottle bac shows instant ammonia control if we read seneye studies.
They work if we read studies where chemists use API to measure bottle bac control abilities.


where fish-in cycles do not work, is when non chemists run api and try to assess their cycle status...why is there no article about that?





Disease gets the fish a few months later, I wish Aze was equally concerned with relaying fish prep into like he does with totally neutral nitrite. Anyone who runs cycling threads and stays around a few months on the same posts they advise can see the outcomes, and would be relaying them plainly


I have never seen one reefer on this entire board ever lose a fish to a cycle. 100% of them were lost to no lid, old age, or one of the seventeen diseases that hitch in on fish-in cycles. notes from the field

 

[Azedenkae]

You quote a 16 year old document.
The document talks about deaths only.
Higher nitrites indicates to ME, the cycle is NOT complete and while it may not kill, it’s certainly not going to be comfortable and that will increase stress.
Our advice remains, zero out ammonia, zero out nitrite, do a 50% water change, manage nitrates going forward.

Just because it is 16 years old does not mean it is not relevant. I like it because I can go into literature and find much of the references that article still cites.

But sure, if you want something more recent: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10499-015-9965-9.

That is a study on ocellaris clownfish, which is all the more relevant to this particular thread. Which still concurs that 6ppm nitrite is not bad at all. 25ppm is where we should start to worry, according to the paper.

To be fair, I would also want to make sure nitrite can be fully handled by nitrifiers to consider a cycle done. But then again, I would not do fish-in cycling either, so this is kind of a moot point for this particular case.

With fish-in cycling, 6ppm nitrite is not yet anything to worry about at all. When it even comes close to reaching 25ppm, then yeah there's a bit of concern.

 

[Azedenkae]

Azenkendae never uses cycling articles to relay cycling rules. hype and consequence in all settings, all the time, using articles not about cycling and never mentions mis testing or common api misreads we collect by the hundreds.


nobody in cycling inputs enough initial ammonia to convert to nitrite in the degrees he lists.



am going to go re read the first post here to determine from key words if this cycle is done, and I can’t find a single example of a stalled or incomplete cycle on the entire internet so this ones already looking well based on %


nobody has ever, ever met nitrite toxicity in a cycling reef tank or there’d be a link, and Aze would espouse it endlessly. Brb

You... do understand that in this case I am saying not to worry about the nitrite level measured, right?

 

[brandon429]

so obviously the fish disease thing has been a source of contention lately lol/interjected here without being asked.

its legit, read up Dean in the fish disease forum and see if you think Im relaying impossibles


regarding the nitrite my beef with Aze isn't because as an adult i like have online nemeses

its because to relay that info on every post about cycling causes misdirection in new cyclers and they already have it rough enough. we can at least be relaying to them precise findings from experience, to have them wade through fewer testing options they can omit and be as streamlined as possible.


what this causes is thousands of cycles to always work out on time, no stalls, and confident new reefers.


those articles he re links in 100% of cycling posts have 0% to do with cycling, but they're relayed as an inclusion to consider.


If he even passively mentioned the disease angle, and known loss we see when we hang around after a cycle call or bother to message a cycler three months after a job we complete, he could keep mentioning neutral nitrite and it wouldn't be a bother.

 

[Azedenkae]

so obviously the fish disease thing has been a source of contention lately lol/interjected here without being asked.

its legit, read up Dean in the fish disease forum and see if you think Im relaying impossibles


regarding the nitrite my beef with Aze isn't because as an adult i like have online nemeses

its because to relay that info on every post about cycling/see his post history regarding nitrite/ causes misdirection in new cyclers and they already have it rough enough. Aze isn't using cycle works he's completed himself for example


those articles he re links in 100% of cycling posts have 0% to do with cycling, but they're relayed as an inclusion to consider.


He's misleading new reefkeepers. If he even passively mentioned the disease angle, and known loss we see when we hang around after a cycle call or bother to message a cycler three months after a job we complete, he could keep mentioning neutral nitrite and it wouldn't be a bother.


But to sub one for the other: following Aze's cycle offers will result in thousands more dead fish. He's not reporting personal experience in any single post we can read from the history. He is re posting other's chemistry links to hype up a risk he's never documented one time in cycling online.

Azenkendae does not have a single example of the consequences for not following his cycle rules. That's because everyones cycle on this board completed, bottle bac is this good. They werent selling us distilled water it turns out.

I am giving people consideration and the full picture so they can decide for themselves what they want to do. I guess you never really read my posts in full, if you think I am scaremongering and just want people to cycle a particular way. In fact, I wonder if you actually read any of the articles I linked? Because they would agree with you that there is really no need to worry about nitrite. Which I also communicate through, and simply tack on a warning that based on experiments, it has been suggested to keep nitrite below a certain level - which is still very high compared to what we normally measure. And thus I make a suggestion of what can be done to be 100% sure we never reach that point, but don't ever force anyone down that path.

I hope that clarify things for you, since you seem to have some imaginary beef with me which I am highly confused about as to why.

[EDIT]

Or maybe because I put you on ignore? Is that why you target me with all this? I do apologize if I hurt your feelings this way, but I just don't really agree with the way you approach helping others, even if you do mean well. We are all here to be helpful, but of course everyone has their own ways of reefing and considerations that we each believe is best. No need to fret too much about it. You can also put me on ignore if you like, that's fine.

 

[Uncle99]

Was just trying to help the OP, not give them pages of someone else’s research which may not fit, every situation or be easy to implement.

The simple answer is Nitrite testing above 0.05ppm means your not finished.

Not finishing leads to additional stress and death, but that’s, simply my opinion.

 

[schuby]

Yes day one with sand and dry rock , I’m just glad my tanks cycling okay

Did you add any nitrifying bacteria? Without an artificial boost, cycling a new tank can take 1-2 months. Your fish may only be alive due to you dosing Prime.

It is very unusual to add fish to an un-cycled tank that wasn't provided a full dose of nitrifying bacteria.

 

[brandon429]

Here’s why that’s not a factor at all Uncle:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/help-water-parameters-fluctuating.805914/#post-8631813
Nitrite is neutral. Never reaches toxicity, not once in reefing

Uncle, both you and Azenkendae can’t find and post one single link of a stopped or ceased cycle other than one with perfect fish running days on end and a non digital test nine dollar kit stating .2 as the proof.



this cycle does match any other bottle bac cycle on file, they’re all like this.

for contrast, put dry rocks and saltwater into a paint bucket heated and circulated and topped off. Input two clowns, feed them once. It won’t make 48 hours before a crash

repeat the setup, this time add bottled bacteria, they live and feed normally


polar opposite outcomes between cycled and not cycled,

see how there’s real consequence vs made up consequence with no linkable examples

its amazing we debate all day on cycle completion but not one link exists on the board for a system that couldn’t carry fish, like the uncycled bucket. Also pertinent, when we test fish in cycles with seneye, they pass safety ammonia clearance instantly. All stalled cycle posts, every one made, are from common nine dollar misreading test kits.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-nitrite-conference-2021.837563/
ok lets make our cases and end the debate on nitrite in cycling.

 

[Uncle99]

I’m no chemist, I will yield to you guys.
If RHF is saying Nitrite is not (or cannot) become toxic in a reef system, then I’m going to have to accept that.

Still going to monitor its progress in every new system. I see no reason to change that.

 

[Deanster12]

Hi thanks for the input I have just tested the tank parameters after 7 days and it reads
0 ammonia
0 nitrites
0 nitrates
1.025 salinity
Ph is 8.2
Temp 78
There are loads of brown diatoms and copepods and gha in the tank now, I’m guessing my tank is still cycling and I’m at the ugly stage, is this correct

 

[brandon429]

Agreed you can reef for sure.

*we have fifteen new cycling posts now since this one started and 100% of them are concerned about nitrite. To claim it doesn’t matter is the vast minority of claims so no harm taken or meant in the back and forth on the details above. All our cycle training says to factor it, so we have quite a gradient to work against.


even if you’d reported .2 ammonia above vs zero, and solid purple nitrite, you’d still be ready. That your test kits happened to agree above is pure luck heh. The new growths/ugly stage you are seeing are visual proof of cycling alongside the test readings, those growths always show up after the filtration layer and not before. The takeaway is that any new growths of algae or scum happens in a cycled reef, that can process ammonia. Handy way to visually verify some cycles off the pics they post.

 

[schuby]

I'm confused. Where did all the nitrate go?

Have you stopped dosing Prime for several days now, keeping the fish in the tank, and the fish have survived?

 

[Azedenkae]

I'm confused. Where did all the nitrate go?

Have you stopped dosing Prime for several days now, keeping the fish in the tank, and the fish have survived?

Seems like it went to all the diatoms and gha and stuff.

 

[brandon429]

test variance accounts for all stated param issues here, that w help on troubleshooting. if we search out api red sea nyos and hanna nitrate comparison threads, they range about fifty ppm on a given sample, its this bad :)

so his stated range might be zero, it might be 80 ppm, with this kit we can't know any of the three. When some params happen to line up to zero then that's nice luck, but overall the stated params are pretty much a nonfactor. We can cycle his tank solely off #of days underwater if required/no testing at all

if he was using a 190$ digital hanna nitrate checker I'd be interested to know what it says, but not any other type of kit. one of the handiest tricks in cycle assessment is not believing any stated params and using an evaluation means that considers the rate of mis testing in the hobby, which is 100% rate. 99% now due to the seneye machines gaining steam.

 

[Deanster12]

The clownfish is a warrior, he survived the cycle without prime and seems to be doing better with the copepods and diatoms thriving