Cycling help

[themadman]

I'm on day 20 of my tank cycle. Some water parameters before I ask 2 questions/concerns.

I'm using a BRS 6 stage RODI and also have sump with refugium set up.

Salinity using Milwaukee digital 1.025
33.5 on apex salinity probe

Temp 78.5

Alk 9.0 on Hanna digital

Following tests have been done using Red Sea marine care and algae pro testing.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.2
Nitrate well over 0.50
Ph 8.0

My ammonia has been 0 since day 6 of the cycle. Days 8-10 nitrite was off the charts and day 11 dropped to less than 1. Day 13 nitrite was less than 0.05. Since day 13 my nitrites have gone up and down from .2 to less than 0.05 and today back to .2. Nitrates have been over .50 all along after they spiked.

My first question would be is this nitrite up and down normal? I thought once it dived and nitrates spiked the nitrite would be wiped out to 0 shortly there after and didn't expect to see this up and down. I've done a few 5 gallon water changes and hasn't seemed to make a difference. And my other question would be is there anything I can do to get the nitrites over the hump down to 0?

Thank you!!

 

[twilliard]

Are you feeding the tank with anything?

 

[themadman]

Also cycling being done just using live rock n reef live rock. 40lbs GMP and 40lbs buna ultra.

 

[themadman]

Are you feeding the tank with anything?

Just what is dying off from the live rock.

 

[brandon429]

madman

based on this link
http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-ta...d-cocktail-shrimp-live-rock-no-shrimp.214618/

is it possible you are using group B rocks and never will have a cycle at all, meaning time to start was already passed?

one type of rock has to cycle and create/sustain bacteria

one type doesn't, and it shows up ready to reef but we like to wait arbitrary times to start, thread shows how to get a set start date off group of rocks

what kind of rocks do you show

 

[Duke4Life]

madman

based on this link
http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-ta...d-cocktail-shrimp-live-rock-no-shrimp.214618/

is it possible you are using group B rocks and never will have a cycle at all, meaning time to start was already passed?

one type of rock has to cycle and create/sustain bacteria

one type doesn't, and it shows up ready to reef but we like to wait arbitrary times to start, thread shows how to get a set start date off group of rocks

what kind of rocks do you show

Very well done!

 

[themadman]

madman

based on this link
http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-ta...d-cocktail-shrimp-live-rock-no-shrimp.214618/

is it possible you are using group B rocks and never will have a cycle at all, meaning time to start was already passed?

one type of rock has to cycle and create/sustain bacteria

one type doesn't, and it shows up ready to reef but we like to wait arbitrary times to start, thread shows how to get a set start date off group of rocks

what kind of rocks do you show

I definitely had group B rocks. There was coralline and life on the rocks for sure. But I did have a very high ammonia spike from die off. Also had several large worms that poked out of the rocks and ended up disintegrating as well. Ammonia day 2 and 3 were off the color chart 2+ on the Red Sea. And then by day 6 ammonia was 0 and remains 0 to this day.

 

[Tahoe61]

Is there a lot of die off? The biological filter may not be large enough yet to convert die off (by product ammonia) into less toxic elements yet.

Test some replacement water prior to adding it to the system. If it reads 0 for nitrites then the current reading may just be user or tester error.

 

[brandon429]

agreed, if you had the verifiable benthic loss that ammonia leak sounds reasonable, but it should be short lived. be skeptical of any real enduring reading in the presence of that much coralline

regarding the worm death, Ive never seen that happen when xferring rocks underwater, not even once. but we have seen that with air transport, or shipping type stress where o2 levels might have went poor for a while

what do you think killed the worms, they are tough rascals? its simply fun to trace out ammonia origins in matured-rock tanks, curious to see where your worm killa was

 

[themadman]

Is there a lot of die off? The biological filter may not be large enough yet to convert die off (by product ammonia) into less toxic elements yet.

Test some replacement water prior to adding it to the system. If it reads 0 for nitrites then the current reading may just be user or tester error.

There was a lot of die off initially with worms etc that I could see but doesn't appear to be any now. Some of the coralline also bleached on the rocks but decent amount has survived. Also found one snail hitchhiker that survived the ammonia spike and still seems to be doing ok. Thanks for the idea about testing water before adding to system. I will do that.

 

[themadman]

agreed, if you had the verifiable benthic loss that ammonia leak sounds reasonable, but it should be short lived. be skeptical of any real enduring reading in the presence of that much coralline

regarding the worm death, Ive never seen that happen when xferring rocks underwater, not even once. but we have seen that with air transport, or shipping type stress where o2 levels might have went poor for a while

what do you think killed the worms, they are tough rascals? its simply fun to trace out ammonia origins in matured-rock tanks, curious to see where your worm killa was

These were the worms I saw. There were several of them and they all ended up disintegrating. I watched it happen over time so I know they didn't go into hiding somewhere. I don't know what could or would have caused it. My salinity and temps have been stable since day one. I had the rocks out of water for a couple of hours during aquascaping. Shipping was done over night from Florida and I picked up at my airport the next night.

 

[brandon429]

nice detail documentation! that shipping stress can be it, understandable shock then and I want to link your thread into our thread now as good verifiable recycling from group B rocks. we can see in the thread some entrants using shipped FL rock were fine, but that varies, it was an emersion event and those guys were used to being underwater etc.

at least you lost no bacteria :) this loss only served to boost your filtration bac in/on that rock

nice details
B

 

[themadman]

nice detail documentation! that shipping stress can be it, understandable shock then and I want to link your thread into our thread now as good verifiable recycling from group B rocks. we can see in the thread some entrants using shipped FL rock were fine, but that varies, it was an emersion event and those guys were used to being underwater etc.

at least you lost no bacteria :) this loss only served to boost your filtration bac in/on that rock

nice details
B

I also should mention that my flow was horrible until late into day 2. I had a plumbing error to my sump so had to redo that before could get overflow working with sump and return. So until late into day 2 I simply had a small rio pump circulating some water along with a heater in the DT until I got sump running with plenty of return flow and 2 mp10's in main tank. So possible low oxygen from that as well killed them off? They didn't emerge for a couple of days and that's when I watched them slowly deteriorate until they were gone.

 

[themadman]

nice detail documentation! that shipping stress can be it, understandable shock then and I want to link your thread into our thread now as good verifiable recycling from group B rocks. we can see in the thread some entrants using shipped FL rock were fine, but that varies, it was an emersion event and those guys were used to being underwater etc.

at least you lost no bacteria :) this loss only served to boost your filtration bac in/on that rock

nice details
B

And thank you. I am trying to make sure I do this the right way and keep documenting things so I can seek help and knowledge as needed. This is my first saltwater build so all the help is appreciated.

 

[brandon429]

Yes I believe those are supporting factors although I couldn't pinpoint

The direction I had for our cycling thread was to approach sustained low level ammonia around matured rocks with nearly complete skepticism, and only begin accepting/remedial action based on unusual transfer factors and or test kit brand details because it takes something pronounced to kill benthics

Brief air exposure won't, or minor changes in params among holding tanks but any sustained o2 insults sure might. In known order of operations on live rock, under stress the benthic creatures we can visually see (and smell, true sustained ammonia has a smell if we smell the rocks they are on) will die first and the bacteria would never die off unless we added antibiotic meds or dried out the rocks. We removed the focus on bacteria in that thread, and steered it towards live rock benthics to accurately reflect the parts we must care about in rock transfers among tanks. The bac are best adapted...they'll always be there.

you have the transfer factors that show the predictability of cycles regarding transferred substrates. If your LFS had received the rocks six mos ago, cured them out, and you took them home in any reasonable manner and still had this issue that would be the perplexing part.

As is, your type of cycle follows predictions in place already in the thread...we just had two lucky rock shippers so far for examples who didn't have benthic dieoff, it's very normal for it to happen in transit or in holding like you detailed.

 

[themadman]

That makes percent sense.

 

[themadman]

Is there a lot of die off? The biological filter may not be large enough yet to convert die off (by product ammonia) into less toxic elements yet.

Test some replacement water prior to adding it to the system. If it reads 0 for nitrites then the current reading may just be user or tester error.

Ok I just tested a fresh batch of water for nitrite and it read 0. Then tested tank water again and still getting about 0.2 nitrite. So do you think this is just a matter of needing to continue to wait for cycle to naturally progress until nitrite is at 0? Is still having nitrite with nitrate so high for so long normal in a cycle? Also with ammonia being 0 for so long should I start feeding the tank some for the good bacteria? Sorry for so many questions. Also I've had the diatom stage pass and now green hair algae growing here and there but not out of control. I'm definitely willing to be patient if need be just wasn't sure if this is something I need to give a push with something or just let nature take its course? Thanks!

 

[brandon429]

nitrite doesn't factor into reefing at the levels and stage you are in, only the destiny of ammonia matters. I realize not everyone agrees w that, but we make large threads based around not needing nitrite info

saves you headache param chasing, too. unimportant molecule

*source of claim

nitrite in the reef tank by RHF

all that means is, base your cycle off your ammonia digestion ability and no other param. since low level readings are often wrong, waiting on an unimpactful param isn't required, but it is ok to do as well. any tank when disturbed can register small amnts of nitrite due to waste stores being moved about (a recurring theme here, detritus)

but that doesn't mean its impactful to anything in a reef.

be sure and search, plenty of threads exist showing minor nitrite readings on fully matured tanks just because someone moved a rock. focus on ammonia only is my recommend, designed to avoid goose chases.

 

[themadman]

That is good information thank you!

 

[samdizshiz]

Ok I just tested a fresh batch of water for nitrite and it read 0. Then tested tank water again and still getting about 0.2 nitrite. So do you think this is just a matter of needing to continue to wait for cycle to naturally progress until nitrite is at 0? Is still having nitrite with nitrate so high for so long normal in a cycle? Also with ammonia being 0 for so long should I start feeding the tank some for the good bacteria? Sorry for so many questions. Also I've had the diatom stage pass and now green hair algae growing here and there but not out of control. I'm definitely willing to be patient if need be just wasn't sure if this is something I need to give a push with something or just let nature take its course? Thanks!

are you doing a fishless cycle