Dead clown - feeling so guilty, help ... and sorry

[BummersReef]

So it is very hard to post this because I know we screwed up and I know I will hear about what we did wrong but deciding to go ahead and feel ashamed in the interests of learning from our mistakes ...

Background:
125 gallon set up 9 weeks ago. 3600 gph with 2 powerheads. Large sump and refug in basement gives us total water volume of approx. 250 gallons. Ran without sump for first 4 or 5 weeks as we were plumbing etc. Sump and refug added about 4 weeks ago. Levels have been good from the start. Only trace nitrate for long time and most recent water test (at LFS) on Saturday shown 0 nitrate with everything else good as usual. LFS said "ok" to getting first fish which we got on Saturday - 2 ocellaris clowns (one orange, one black).
Did NOT use QT on advice from LFS (that we have used for years ... freshwater and salt in the past ... that we trust and are well respected in our area)
The black one is the one that died last night (we were not home when it happened). Early in the day we had notice a white area on his back that looked like slim or a film. Very minor but still. We went in to LFS with a pic of him (shown below) and asked about the white film. Said it did not look like ich ... not spots, and to watch him. He ate Saturday and Sunday, once each time, but did not eat when we fed in AM yesterday.
Since bringing them both home, the black one was much less active than orange but swam out into open areas and seemed to actually be doing better than the orange. The orange was acting strange from the get go - swimming in upper corner, often vertically ... head down. That was the one we worried about. I did see the black one "nip" at orange once when feeding on Sunday but they basically stayed away from each other.
At the same time we got the clowns we got 4 small beginner corals and had a tough time attaching them - used super glue that got all over, very messy and also used epoxy putty. Did think the white film might be from the glue as a line of it did land on one of the corals and well ... we used too much and didn't have a clue what we were doing with it and it was floating all over the tank.
Fish died while we were at LFS so didn't see what happened just prior.
many thoughts as to how we screwed up going around in my head - didn't QT (LFS said no need with first fish), got corals at same time, gluing mess, etc.
also ..... ummmm ... didn't ever do a "real" water change yet, as we essentially did a huge change when adding the sump/refug and doubling water volume. We did add about 30 gallons to refill evap about a week ago but have never syphoned the gravel in DT.
Here is a photo of him taken about 3 hours before we found him dead.
What did we do wrong? any thoughts? Got ahead, give it to me straight. I feel really bad. We knew we were/are stupid newbies but we need to learn and this is the only way.
Called LFS and will bring him in tonight and they will do the post mortem thing and see if they can figure anything out.
also .. we want two clowns, not one. Do we get another one right away to avoid the lone clown getting mean?? I have no idea what is best.
thanks ahead of time
feeling so guilty ....

 

[melypr1985]

Hi there! I'm so sorry for your loss. I dont believe anybody here would be rude to you or make you feel worse than you already do. We will only try to help you learn from this so you can enjoy success in the future.

Early in the day we had notice a white area on his back that looked like slim or a film.

This and the picture look like Brooklynella to me. That would explain the quick death and odd behavior as well. I've dealt with this quite a bit at the LFS I work at. Here's the skinny: QT is always important especially with the first fish because those fish could and do bring in all manner of parasites that will live in the tank and infect any new fish. It's also worth mentioning that these things can also ride into the tank on corals. you can prevent that with a coral QT that has no fish in it (basically a frag tank). You would keep the corals in the QT to watch for pests for 76 days. This allows any parasites to hatch and die from starvation before going into the tank.

I think you've done great here. Asking for help to understand what happened is awesome! Now I'll show you a little about brook so you'll be prepared for the next set of clowns you get. You'll want to hold off on fish for 6 weeks to allow the parasite to die off in the tank as well, of course you can always spend this time setting up a QT and running a couple new fish through it while you wait. :)

Brooklynella:

Symptoms – This is most often seen in clownfish, but it can afflict any fish. The fish’s skin will appear to be peeling or sloughing off, oftentimes causing excessive white mucous to form around the affected area(s).

Treatment options - Formalin or acriflavine bath, followed by additional baths (as needed - but give the fish a day to recuperate in-between baths). You can use formalin in a QT (at a much lower concentration than the bath), but great care must be taken to provide plenty of gas exchange as formalin will quickly deplete the water of oxygen. For this reason, doing baths is the safer option as the fish can be pulled from the formalin if showing signs of distress. Acriflavine is probably the better option for in-tank QT use.

The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS (preferred), Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus.

Acriflavine can be found in Acriflavine-MS (preferred) and Ruby Reef Rally.

Metronidazole (exs. Seachem MetroPlex, Metro-MS, Hikari Metro+) is considered an alternative treatment for brook. A freshwater dip may provide temporary relief if you are unable to locate any of the aforementioned medications right away. Some even claim total eradication of the disease is possible just by performing multiple FW dips on the fish. o_O

 

[BummersReef]

Thank you so much (can't figure out how to "tag" Meridith in this) I know you guys are so nice and never ever rude. But I also know I am gonna be told YOU SHOULD HAVE USED A QT! and I just feel bad because I should have known better.
I have more questions of course ...
- we are very confused about the QT process. We had set up a 10 gallon for QT the very day we got the fish but haven't put in filter yet. LFS said don't treat fish in QT, just watch and target medicate if needed. Said use HOB filter w/carbon until we have to medicate. and something about putting in live rock or a fish to keep cycle going all the time?? I don't understand the process of keeping a fish always in a QT but have QT in one of the bedrooms and do want to keep a fish in it when not using as QT if possible - is that what you mean by "running a couple new fish through it"??? We then put the QT fish in the refug when needing to QT?
- do we water change the QT? test for ammonia every day?
- for the coral QT ... does that take the place of dipping? or dip and QT? what does a coral QT need as far as filter, lights etc?
- treating the brook - do we start treating for that now? even if other clown doesn't show signs? does a "bath" mean take him out and soak him in it for a bit and put him back in DT?
- Should I keep the other clown in the DT or move him to QT now?
- when it is safe, can I add just one clown to be buddies with our single clown or am I starting over with 2 clowns at the same time? you mention the "next set of clowns" ... what about the guy I already have? can I have 3 clowns?
thank you SO much. I love this place!

 

[melypr1985]

Ok. That's a lot of questions and I'll try to address them all here. This link will get you started on the QT. How, when, what to use ect. Give it a good read and that will answer most of your questions. http://reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/

When I said "run a couple new fish through QT" I meant while your tank is fallow (fishless) you can have fish in QT being treated. I forgot that you had a clown left still, so that guy will need the dip mentioned in the brook treatment instructions then he needs to be placed in the new QT.

Never put a new fish in your sump before QT. The sump is connected to the display and will then contaminate the whole display tank.

You dont want to keep fish in the QT just for the heck of it. You'll only want to run new fish through it, or sick fish in need of treatment. You can take it down when your done with it, but it's not something to make into another display tank. Too many meds go through it to make it useful in that regard.

You'll still want to dip your corals before putting them in the Coral QT. Here is an example of Humblefish's coral QT - couldn't find a pic of mine fast enough. HOB filter, cheap T-5 lighting, power head, heater, sand and live rock.... that's it.

The current clown should be dipped for an hour and placed in the QT you have set up. Put the filter on it and a heater and dose a bacteria in a bottle product to help get the cycle going. You'll do water changes on it as needed. You'll want an ammonia alert badge, or just test for ammonia every day and do water changes if you read any ammonia at all.

Dont put any fish in your display for 6 weeks. You want to let the brook die off first. Your current clown - assuming he's cured- will be the first one in the display. Then you'll be able to buy a couple more fish for the QT. When they are done, then can go in the display.... and so on and so on.... until the tank is full of healthy happy fish!

 

[DLHDesign]

Great questions, @BummersReef - no shame in the death; loosing fish is part of the hobby. We honor the dead by learning how to do better next time; just like you are.

As always; great answers @melypr1985 - really appreciate the help everyone on the Reef Squad (and beyond) provide on this site.

(can't figure out how to "tag" Meridith in this)

This is something I can help with - yay! Mentioning someone on the forums is done by prefacing their username with an "@". This will (unless they've changed their preferences dramatically) send that user an email that they have been mentioned in the thread (and also provide them with a link to the thread).

 

[BummersReef]

Great questions, @BummersReef - no shame in the death; loosing fish is part of the hobby. We honor the dead by learning how to do better next time; just like you are.

As always; great answers @melypr1985 - really appreciate the help everyone on the Reef Squad (and beyond) provide on this site.


This is something I can help with - yay! Mentioning someone on the forums is done by prefacing their username with an "@". This will (unless they've changed their preferences dramatically) send that user an email that they have been mentioned in the thread (and also provide them with a link to the thread).

thank you! @DLHDesign

 

[dbl]

You're a quick study @BummersReef...you picked up on the tagging thing pretty quickly...lol. There is never any shame in sharing your experiences with the forum. We all learn by experience and by other's experiences. And as said, we've all lost fish at one point or another. You've done a great job with this in trying to figure out what went wrong and how to do what ever you can do to prevent it from happening again.

@melypr1985, as usual, has provide you with great advise. One thing to mention though, and she can correct me if needed, but if you use live rock in your QT (for your fish), it's best not to introduce that in to your system once you are done with your QT tank. It can absorb certain medications (ie: copper) that you do not want in your main system. Of course you can let it sit fallow for 76 days or dry it out, then it can be used again, but never put it in your system right away.

That's why a lot of people keep a filter pad/sponge for their HOB filter in their sump. It gets seeded with the beneficial bacteria so once you're ready to use it, you pull it out and put it in your filter. When you're done, you toss is and get a new one that goes in your sump for the next time.

You can use a couple pieces of PVC fittings as a hiding place for your fish. They are inexpensive so tossing them when done doesn't hurt so badly.

 

[BummersReef]

@melypr1985 thanks so much
As far as the fish in the QT - the LFS guy said we could get a "unimportant" fish like a damsel or whatever (no fish is "unimportant" but he meant not one we care about putting in DT) to keep in the QT when we are not using it for a QT. I think idea was to have that fish keeping the cycle going and when it came time to QT fish ultimately bound for DT, we would take damsel/whatever and pop it in the refug prior to putting new fish in QT. That was assuming the damsel had been living in QT for sometime and we were confident he was healthy. keep him in refug until we are done QTing new fish.
But this LFS guy is suggesting a QT time of much shorter than what I am hearing about here. .... like a week up to maybe 4 weeks. But if we keep them in QT as long as recommended here there won't be any time for a damsel to be in QT, we'll constantly have a fish waiting to go in DT or this will take us years to stock the tank! lol
thank you so much again
Carla

 

[BummersReef]

but if you use live rock in your QT (for your fish), it's best not to introduce that in to your system once you are done with your QT tank. It can absorb certain medications (ie: copper) that you do not want in your main system. Of course you can let it sit fallow for 76 days or dry it out, then it can be used again, but never put it in your system right away.

I don't think we are going to mess with live rock in QT, heck .... I am just gonna say NO not gonna do ... lol
Gotta try and keep this simply as I am old and well my brain just can't take too much stuff
plan to use filter pads (w carbon) in HOB when not treating QT fish with anything and taking carbon out if we treat (as carbon can mess with meds right?)
got some lame old lighthouse decoration that is well cleaned and dried out from used system we got months ago and gonna use that for hiddy places ... happy to trash that when done
got lots of PVC left from sumping to basement escapade

so we get an ammonia test kit and test every day in QT - and then I assume have some kind of high ammonia fix it solution ready to go in if there is any ammonia?

 

[rebekwl]

so we get an ammonia test kit and test every day in QT - and then I assume have some kind of high ammonia fix it solution ready to go in if there is any ammonia?

You can get an ammonia badge to keep in the QT. When the ammonia registers on the badge, you just do a quick water change to get it back down to 0 :)

 

[melypr1985]

but if you use live rock in your QT (for your fish), it's best not to introduce that in to your system once you are done with your QT tank. It can absorb certain medications (ie: copper) that you do not want in your main system. Of course you can let it sit fallow for 76 days or dry it out, then it can be used again, but never put it in your system right away.

Your right! No live rock in the QT at all. The live rock I mentioned was meant for the Coral QT that I was talking about. PVC elbows are appropriate hiding places for a fish QT.

 

[melypr1985]

@melypr1985 thanks so much
As far as the fish in the QT - the LFS guy said we could get a "unimportant" fish like a damsel or whatever (no fish is "unimportant" but he meant not one we care about putting in DT) to keep in the QT when we are not using it for a QT. I think idea was to have that fish keeping the cycle going and when it came time to QT fish ultimately bound for DT, we would take damsel/whatever and pop it in the refug prior to putting new fish in QT. That was assuming the damsel had been living in QT for sometime and we were confident he was healthy. keep him in refug until we are done QTing new fish.
But this LFS guy is suggesting a QT time of much shorter than what I am hearing about here. .... like a week up to maybe 4 weeks. But if we keep them in QT as long as recommended here there won't be any time for a damsel to be in QT, we'll constantly have a fish waiting to go in DT or this will take us years to stock the tank! lol
thank you so much again
Carla

So I dont like the idea of keeping a fish in the QT, no matter what. Your typical QT would run about 30 days with another couple weeks of observation and conditioning before putting them in the DT. If you QT your fish in small batches, then it wont take as long to stock the tank, but it really wont take years to do! lol Besides, going slow is always a good thing in this hobby.

Just to address the issue of how to keep the QT going in between batches of fish: You an always just use a pinch of fish food every couple days to feed the bio filter. That will suffice. I'll say that I dont keep my QT up and running all the time. I only set it up when I need it, then take it down, disinfect it, and store it dry. This eliminates any change of a lingering bacteria or parasite getting to the next batch of fish.

 

[melypr1985]

You can get an ammonia badge to keep in the QT. When the ammonia registers on the badge, you just do a quick water change to get it back down to 0 :)

absolutely right!

 

[DLHDesign]

I only set it up when I need it, then take it down, disinfect it, and store it dry.

To make sure this is clear (because it confused me at first) - when setting up a QT tank, it's okay to use water from your DT (assuming that your DT is clean of issues, of course). The first time I did a QT (after I sorted that out), I just did a 10gal water change on my DT to fill the QT - win/win. It's kind of a minor point, really, but it'll save you some salt and a bit of effort, at least.

I got gear for two 10gal QT tanks; each with their own basic equipment - which was just a heater and an ammonia badge. I bought one air pump and swap out the tubing and stone every time (both cheap). I bought a tiny little powerhead and a HOB for any QT process that lasts longer than a few days (after the "tank-to-tank" marathon is done, basically) and make sure they are dried out. I've got a half-dozen filters for the HOB in my DT sump at all times so that I can drop one into the QT tank as needed.
All of that cost me less than $80 (which is less than the cost of a single fish sometimes). None of it is gear I'd ever use on my DT, but it's all stuff that works well enough for the time I need it to. I'm checking the QT multiple times a day anyways, so if anything fails or looks to be strange, I'll notice and replace it quickly.

I've actually just converted one of my QT tanks into a frag tank. Which means I'll likely have to go out and get another QT setup... Oh well; $30 is nothing compared to the cost of the fishes that will pass through it.

 

[melypr1985]

To make sure this is clear (because it confused me at first) - when setting up a QT tank, it's okay to use water from your DT (assuming that your DT is clean of issues, of course). The first time I did a QT (after I sorted that out), I just did a 10gal water change on my DT to fill the QT - win/win. It's kind of a minor point, really, but it'll save you some salt and a bit of effort, at least.

I got gear for two 10gal QT tanks; each with their own basic equipment - which was just a heater and an ammonia badge. I bought one air pump and swap out the tubing and stone every time (both cheap). I bought a tiny little powerhead and a HOB for any QT process that lasts longer than a few days (after the "tank-to-tank" marathon is done, basically) and make sure they are dried out. I've got a half-dozen filters for the HOB in my DT sump at all times so that I can drop one into the QT tank as needed.
All of that cost me less than $80 (which is less than the cost of a single fish sometimes). None of it is gear I'd ever use on my DT, but it's all stuff that works well enough for the time I need it to. I'm checking the QT multiple times a day anyways, so if anything fails or looks to be strange, I'll notice and replace it quickly.

I've actually just converted one of my QT tanks into a frag tank. Which means I'll likely have to go out and get another QT setup... Oh well; $30 is nothing compared to the cost of the fishes that will pass through it.

Very true! good advice... especially having the sponges in the sump to keep them seeded!

 

[reefstacks]

So it is very hard to post this because I know we screwed up and I know I will hear about what we did wrong but deciding to go ahead and feel ashamed in the interests of learning from our mistakes ...

Background:
125 gallon set up 9 weeks ago. 3600 gph with 2 powerheads. Large sump and refug in basement gives us total water volume of approx. 250 gallons. Ran without sump for first 4 or 5 weeks as we were plumbing etc. Sump and refug added about 4 weeks ago. Levels have been good from the start. Only trace nitrate for long time and most recent water test (at LFS) on Saturday shown 0 nitrate with everything else good as usual. LFS said "ok" to getting first fish which we got on Saturday - 2 ocellaris clowns (one orange, one black).
Did NOT use QT on advice from LFS (that we have used for years ... freshwater and salt in the past ... that we trust and are well respected in our area)
The black one is the one that died last night (we were not home when it happened). Early in the day we had notice a white area on his back that looked like slim or a film. Very minor but still. We went in to LFS with a pic of him (shown below) and asked about the white film. Said it did not look like ich ... not spots, and to watch him. He ate Saturday and Sunday, once each time, but did not eat when we fed in AM yesterday.
Since bringing them both home, the black one was much less active than orange but swam out into open areas and seemed to actually be doing better than the orange. The orange was acting strange from the get go - swimming in upper corner, often vertically ... head down. That was the one we worried about. I did see the black one "nip" at orange once when feeding on Sunday but they basically stayed away from each other.
At the same time we got the clowns we got 4 small beginner corals and had a tough time attaching them - used super glue that got all over, very messy and also used epoxy putty. Did think the white film might be from the glue as a line of it did land on one of the corals and well ... we used too much and didn't have a clue what we were doing with it and it was floating all over the tank.
Fish died while we were at LFS so didn't see what happened just prior.
many thoughts as to how we screwed up going around in my head - didn't QT (LFS said no need with first fish), got corals at same time, gluing mess, etc.
also ..... ummmm ... didn't ever do a "real" water change yet, as we essentially did a huge change when adding the sump/refug and doubling water volume. We did add about 30 gallons to refill evap about a week ago but have never syphoned the gravel in DT.
Here is a photo of him taken about 3 hours before we found him dead.
What did we do wrong? any thoughts? Got ahead, give it to me straight. I feel really bad. We knew we were/are stupid newbies but we need to learn and this is the only way.
Called LFS and will bring him in tonight and they will do the post mortem thing and see if they can figure anything out.
also .. we want two clowns, not one. Do we get another one right away to avoid the lone clown getting mean?? I have no idea what is best.
thanks ahead of time
feeling so guilty ....

I don't have much to offer to help you with the issue, but I just want to give you huge props for putting all the information on here even while you expected to get slammed for it. I agree with the other guys about the nature of this forum and the members here. In my experience, people here are overwhelmingly helpful and are not looking to put anyone down. Personally, again from my experience, I'm much more inclined to believe that most of the members here will look at this thread and respect the fact that you put yourself and potential mistakes out there in the interest of learning and improving as a hobbyist, and helping others to learn as well. That's definitely how I feel about it! You'll be great in no time, it's obvious that you are dedicated to learning whatever you can in order to get better and better! Don't beat yourself up too bad :)

 

[BummersReef]

I'm gonna cry cause ya'll are being so NICE when we were so naughty! :(
I really debated about making the confession but very glad I did ... Thank you all again so much - will be reading up on QT info tonight

Someone mentioned keeping "sponges" in sump ... And popping those in qt when needed. What are those?? Not actual sponges ... Some kind of filter pad or something?

Also took dead guy into LFS tonight and they couldn't ascertain anything because we froze him. Anyway also took in water for test and phosphate was .25
They suggested a product (GFO) that was like $40 for a little jar. Any suggestions on a cheaper way to deal with phosphates? ... We got less expensive phosquard but that won't last long and hoping there is a cheaper way to stock up on GFO

 

[DLHDesign]

...when we were so naughty! :(

You weren't, though. You got a sick fish and didn't know enough to get it healthy. If this is the only time that happens to you if you continue on with this hobby, then you should play the lottery instead (or in addition, because you would have enough money to get as many tanks as you wanted).

You did all you knew how to do, and that's all that you can ever expect of yourself. :)

 

[melypr1985]

Someone mentioned keeping "sponges" in sump ... And popping those in qt when needed. What are those?? Not actual sponges ... Some kind of filter pad or something?

It's an actual sponge. We sell them, and most LFS's will, they can be black simple sponge that goes into a power filter. Cheap and replaceable
.

. Any suggestions on a cheaper way to deal with phosphates?

More frequent water changes, feeding less or changing the food you feed, macro algae. There are tons of ways to do that.

 

[MoneyMike1987]

@melypr1985 or algae scrubbers

More frequent water changes, feeding less or changing the food you feed, macro algae. There are tons of ways to do that.