Dealing with fish aggression, esp. damsels

[fish_collector]

In my lowboy frag tank I currently have a tomato clown, solid blue damsel, talbot damsel, lemon damsel and a black bar damsel with zero aggression. There was an azure in there as well but I haven't seen it for quite some time, I suspect it jumped and one of the dogs made a snack of it

Of all of the damsels I've had, the 2 that stand out as perfect tankmates are the talbot and black bar. The lemon is a true jerk.

Every once in a while I will come across a damsel I've never seen before but I just can't get over the fact that they're still damsels and they do eventually turn into jerks.

 

[mcarroll]

Books get out of date, or disagree with each other, just like information on the web as well. Over the years, I have often found it's best to discover it for yourself - after having found whatever agreement you can between books and online information, to get a head start.

Ok, I had the wrong impression for a second....had to read to the end.

It's true that books are finite, and so the internet (for all its many warts) makes a GREAT supplement.

But I do not think that books in our hobby which describe animal behavior get out of date tho – thankfully. Sometimes scientific names change, which can cause some confusion, but that's not the same thing.

*Some specific content* of hobby books might become passe since the hobby is quite trendy in the "how to" department.

But this kind of info does not cross over into animal behavior and biology, or even actual husbandry for the most part. After all, the core needs of husbandry have never really changed, at least from the animals' perspective.

Another point is that good books (eg. Moe, Sprung, Tullock, Michaels, Shimek, et al.) usually make their limits and biases pretty clear, which can actually make them (the bias AND the book) more useful or interesting than sources like "the internet" which mostly claims no limits or biases.

Off the bookshelf next to me, these books all have relevant info to this thread:

• Spotte, "Captive Seawater Fishes" – a whole chapter on fish behavior; VERY complete
• Fenner, "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" – comprehensive from pictures to behavior
• Tullock, "Natural Reef Aquariums" – Reflecting the Wild Reef is the whole center of the book, with a whole chapter on fishes.
• Hoover, "Hawaii's Fishes..." – it's hard to beat first hand in situ accounts....especially when they come with excellent pics!!!
• Michaels, "Marine Fishes" – Ditto.

 

[Common Blevil]

One of the most annoying and disappointing things that can happen in an aquarium, is for fish to fight and bully. I have heard and read so many suggestions over the years, and for certain, they don't always (ever?) work. Nevertheless, I would love to have a community of damsels in a tank.

Years ago, I put 5 yellowtailed Blue damsels (the supposedly best natured type) in a 4 foot tank (with various other fish species, like a tang, tusk fish, wrasse, etc. This was following the theory of letting each damsel have it's own territory. They 5 found spots in the reef to call home, but over about 6 months, they were down to 3. They held at 3 for many years. So, should we conclude only 3 in a 4 foot tank?

Well, another theory is to have many damsels all together so any aggression is spread, territories are not formed, and one fish doesn't get picked on continually. I have had this work with freshwater fish, haven't tried it with damsels.

Also suggested, is many hiding places (not necessarily "territories" but plenty of caves and holes to disappear into when ne fish inevitably chases another).

Another suggestion often heard, is to buy groups in odd numbers, so you don't end up with pairing, and ganging up, so much. Combined often with adding them all at the same time, or rearranging the tank completely when a new fish is added.

Another method is to get a batch from the same breeding and raise them together, Again, not with damsels, but I have see this work, only until maturity starts, then they start picking off the weakest in the group, and one by one, you start losing them.

How about a group, on one of each different species that you obtain. With damsels, these days it is easy to come up with 6 or 8 or more types, of the less aggressive species. Maybe you could double up on some of the better behaved.

Another common one to combine with the above, is just keep them well fed, so they don't compete for food. Along with this, good water quality is also suggested, so well fed and good clean water, adds up to a good filtration and biological support system.


Maybe you can add other suggestions. How about those who try to keep a large group of green chromis, or ocellaris clowns. What works best?


Right now, I am considering (maybe in combination)

1. mixed damsels (species like talbot, yellowtailed blue, lemon, blue, vanderbilt - basically avoid bigger and/or more aggressive types)
2. larger numbers in smaller tank
3. numerous escape routes and hiding places
4. keeping them fat :)
5. maybe, depending on tank size, a few other types of fish that can cope, goby, wrasse, puffer


Lastly, I hope my thinking out loud here doesn't start a big argument.
Please be nice :)

I did not have that much expertise myself but i had kept damsels(azures) in trios and pairs. The key is feeding them a lot, getting them all at the same time and having lot's AND I MEAN LOT'S of hiding spots. Not a few caves, no, an overhang your 2 inch montipora provides but lot's of caves, crevices and overhangs, created either by live rock or coral. Damsels, bassltes and angelfish especially need a lot of them to feel secure. Blennies will also be thankful and much more bold. The same with line of sight breaks, corals, macroalgae or rockwork will provide them, so fish do not always see eachother and be more comfortable. You want some yourself time when no one bothers you, same with fish.

KEEP IN MIND THAT IF YOU THINK A FISH WILL USE A CAVE OR PASSAGE DOES NOT MEAN THAT A FISH WILL USE IT, YOU NEED TO EITHER SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH THE FISH YOU HAVE TO LEARN WHAT THEY LIKE, OR FIND A PERSON WHO HAS THE FISH.

Also more feedings. Chrysiptera damsels in the wild feed near constantly and although much less needy in frequent feeding as are chromis for example, but they become much kinder when not hungry, as do you.

Example from life:
When i had 15 g tank i had a pair of azures, they were the last fish added and vere pretty docile, although almost max size. Unfortunately i crushed the female with a rock when upgrading to a 30 g. In 30 g i made a very maze like pile of rocks and after a few weeks added 2 females to make a harem. They lived fine for a while, but then i changed the scape, removed a lot of rocks so the scape will be more open. Damsels were not amused and just decided to remove the 3rd one from the group, which i fortunately caught before it died, nursed to health and gave to a fellow reefer.

So in conclusion if you want groups of damsels(more than a pair) or groups of dwarf angels, make a maze-like rockwork with lots of intertwined caves and crevices.

PS: i did not keep a lot of fish, but i always strive to make the best aquarium for my animals and try to keep social species at least in pairs if possible, that teaches a lot. I also have a lot of reefer friends with more experience. (The experience in question is do not put a group of not quarantined black bar chromis into an old reef tank if you don't want to loose all your beloved tomini tangs, lawnmower blennies or long nose hawkfish)

 

[Common Blevil]

I did not have that much expertise myself but i had kept damsels(azures) in trios and pairs. The key is feeding them a lot, getting them all at the same time and having lot's AND I MEAN LOT'S of hiding spots. Not a few caves, no, an overhang your 2 inch montipora provides but lot's of caves, crevices and overhangs, created either by live rock or coral. Damsels, bassltes and angelfish especially need a lot of them to feel secure. Blennies will also be thankful and much more bold. The same with line of sight breaks, corals, macroalgae or rockwork will provide them, so fish do not always see eachother and be more comfortable. You want some yourself time when no one bothers you, same with fish.

KEEP IN MIND THAT IF YOU THINK A FISH WILL USE A CAVE OR PASSAGE DOES NOT MEAN THAT A FISH WILL USE IT, YOU NEED TO EITHER SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH THE FISH YOU HAVE TO LEARN WHAT THEY LIKE, OR FIND A PERSON WHO HAS THE FISH.

Also more feedings. Chrysiptera damsels in the wild feed near constantly and although much less needy in frequent feeding as are chromis for example, but they become much kinder when not hungry, as do you.

Example from life:
When i had 15 g tank i had a pair of azures, they were the last fish added and vere pretty docile, although almost max size. Unfortunately i crushed the female with a rock when upgrading to a 30 g. In 30 g i made a very maze like pile of rocks and after a few weeks added 2 females to make a harem. They lived fine for a while, but then i changed the scape, removed a lot of rocks so the scape will be more open. Damsels were not amused and just decided to remove the 3rd one from the group, which i fortunately caught before it died, nursed to health and gave to a fellow reefer.

So in conclusion if you want groups of damsels(more than a pair) or groups of dwarf angels, make a maze-like rockwork with lots of intertwined caves and crevices.

PS: i did not keep a lot of fish, but i always strive to make the best aquarium for my animals and try to keep social species at least in pairs if possible, that teaches a lot. I also have a lot of reefer friends with more experience. (The experience in question is do not put a group of not quarantined black bar chromis into an old reef tank if you don't want to loose all your beloved tomini tangs, lawnmower blennies or long nose hawkfish)

And also blue coloured damsels look much better under white light or sunlight, the metallic glow they have is out of this world. I don't know why people put blue fish under blue lights, they don't look good there...

 

[betareef]

So in conclusion if you want groups of damsels(more than a pair) or groups of dwarf angels, make a maze-like rockwork with lots of intertwined caves and crevices.

See my link to my experimental nano tank with damsels. I have indeed, a maze of pvc pipes and elbows with rock and coral over the top (and more to come. The hiding places inside and outside the pipes between them and the coral, and numerous.

the link again https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/r...gal-after-power-outage.1130890/#post-13915806

just scroll down to the new post

 

[betareef]

So, new learning. Yellow damsels are VERY aggressive, and not suitable. I didn't do my research properly - they are Pomacentrus, and I should have expected this.

I had two amongst the initial group of damsels, and one of them was immediately bullied into a corner by the other, so was removed to a quarantine tank.

Then I tried to introduce a clarkii clown. Well, I have never seen such a fight. Round and around in tight circles, biting at each other. Like Siamese fighters without a glass wall between them. The clarkii was barely holding his own, so, second yellow damsel was removed.

The good news, this morning all is peaceful. I also added a Cooperi anthia. so, clown, anthia, two talbots and two vanderbilts seem to be getting along. The vanderbilts are a bit chasey, but don't seem to do each other any damage.

 

[betareef]

Just a link to a picture of them all getting along now.

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