Deciding on controller: What do you hate most about Apex, GHL, and HYDROS?

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

So, after reading a ton and watching videos, i am more on fence about what controller to buy than ever before...

I have a 200 gallon display, a 20 gallon display, a 10 gallon frag, a qt system, a water change system.

I think i understand the difference between Apez, GHL, and Hydros and that isnt making me lean one way or another. None of them are perfect for what i want--that is very clear.

So, maybe, if i know what users HATE or DISLIKE about them that will help me decide one over another???

Feel free to just list what sucks about each controller--especially if it isnt obvious unless you used it for a while--i'd appreciate it!

 

[BrandonS]

What I hate the most about

ghl is the optical sensor price.

Neptune is needing a breakout box for almost everything.

Hydros is limited sense ports. Control 4 only has 4.

Not an exhausive list. Lol

 

[SuncrestReef]

My main complaint about the Apex is the limitation of having a single Alarm condition reported at a time. I have worked around this by placing individual virtual outputs on my dashboard which monitor each condition so I can see the status at a glance, but I would prefer to receive text or email notifications for each alarm condition if there are multiple concurrent issues. I explain this in my Apex Alarm Programming tutorial.

My only other complaint is the frequent failure rate with the DDR. The optical sensors fail frequently and/or the circuit board is easily damaged by liquids since it's not sealed properly.

You will probably see a lot of complaints about the Apex salinity probe. Mine has worked perfectly for 3 years because I have it mounted upside down so no air bubbles get trapped inside. This simple technique solves the problem experienced by so many people.

Other than that, I'm completely happy with my Apex and have no intentions of switching platforms. See my entire series of Apex articles here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/authors/suncrestreef.93940/

 

[HuduVudu]

Can't operate the Apex without your router when the power is down.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Thanks, keep them coming, if you can?! It does help. I'm looking into each of these statements to understand if that would influence which i'll buy!!

 

[SuncrestReef]

Can't operate the Apex without your router when the power is down.

If you have a Display module, you can control the Apex without any network connection. But as a best practice, put your Apex and your router on a UPS battery for backup power. The Apex can even be integrated with the UPS so it knows when the power is out, so it can turn off high-power devices like heaters, lights, and pumps to preserve the battery life for water movement. See my tutorial on Apex Power Monitoring for details to set this up:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/neptune-apex-programming-tutorials-part-4-power-monitoring.698/

 

[kenchilada]

Apex 2016: Low-quality internal components, garbage salinity probe (due to sensitivity to interference), clunky programming, bad flow meters. I don't trust most of the addons.

No experience with others.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Apex 2016: Low-quality internal components, garbage salinity probe (due to sensitivity to interference), clunky programming, bad flow meters. I don't trust most of the addons.

No experience with others.

What is clunky about the programming? I was watching a video and it seemed GHL was more "clunky" and Apex had more versatility, the ability to monitor and label more things??

If i am wrong, please tell me. That software was a plus for Apex so far for me, but it sucks--let me know your experience and why?!

Hydros seemed good, no coding--but less versatility?? Apex had the code programming as well as drop down menus... GHL seem the most limited on the software...

I was thinking Hydros originally, then GHL for solid equipment (but seems tough using software), now leaning APEX for software really, but with versa dosing pumps and better substitute equipment where i can. Is this a mistake?

 

[HuduVudu]

If you have a Display module, you can control the Apex without any network connection. But as a best practice, put your Apex and your router on a UPS battery for backup power. The Apex can even be integrated with the UPS so it knows when the power is out, so it can turn off high-power devices like heaters, lights, and pumps to preserve the battery life for water movement. See my tutorial on Apex Power Monitoring for details to set this up:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/neptune-apex-programming-tutorials-part-4-power-monitoring.698/

I know how to do it. I am not paying for a display that will go bad in a year, and costs way too much money. I think that there could be a better way to deal with power down situations. Blue tooth comes to mind. Or perhaps gasp! the old USB. Or even make the controller a hot spot. Many ways to deal with this situation. Adding more battery back up or worse yet having to branch multiple things off of my generator isn't something I want to do. A clean solution from APEX would be better. I am just noting that it isn't nice they way they implemented it.

I had to find all of this out the hard way when they came to update my power poles. You find out real fast where the holes in your system are.

I also have to say that in the last few years APEX has become less interested in customer feed back and like all companies eventually will, they are starting to succumb to themselves. When a company becomes completely focused inward they cease to be of any value or help to their customers.

The little *** for tat war with EcoTech also signaled to me that they are more interested in politics than they are with making what customers need and want.

I have had APEX for a long time and up until recently I have really liked them. They haven't done anything concretely that tells me that the gig is up, but the subtle hints are making me not trust them.

Also on the AFS why is it that they can't seem to get motor quieted down. The product, except for the programming, is solid but the motor noise is a joke. The DOS's drift, and I never bothered to try out the CORs because APEX.

GHL is no gawd send either. The people at GHL are hardware people and their software shows it. Fortunately for me I get the gates and the thinking, but it took me a bit to make the transition. APEX is way better in this regard. Though I think APEX could have done a lot more to make the programming more like programming. This coming from a software engineer.

Neither is perfect, but I am moving steadily to GHL because hardware failure is no joke and though I haven't had problems with APEX I fear their current popularity/marketing direction. I don't think it will end well and I don't want to be on the wrong side of it.

 

[kenchilada]

What is clunky about the programming? I was watching a video and it seemed GHL was more "clunky" and Apex had more versatility, the ability to monitor and label more things??

If i am wrong, please tell me. That software was a plus for Apex so far for me, but it sucks--let me know your experience and why?!

Hydros seemed good, no coding--but less versatility?? Apex had the code programming as well as drop down menus... GHL seem the most limited on the software...

I was thinking Hydros originally, then GHL for solid equipment (but seems tough using software), now leaning APEX for software really, but with versa dosing pumps and better substitute equipment where i can. Is this a mistake?

This thing is like programming a VCR. I'm a software developer and work with UI/UX designers all day, so that's why my opinion is such. But... that's just my worthless opinion. I don't doubt GHL is just as bad or worse.

It's a difficult application to create an easy to use interface for. I would probably look at applications in the robotics process automation industry for examples of how to improve.

 

[HuduVudu]

GHL seem the most limited on the software...

This isn't actually true. They are actually more robust and flexible. The problem is that they think like hardware people and not like software people. Once you get it, it is really flexible.

There is help here on GHL, but you may have to really hunker down to even get the help. It isn't easy.

 

[kenchilada]

Neither is perfect, but I am moving steadily to GHL because hardware failure is no joke and though I haven't had problems with APEX I fear their current popularity/marketing direction. I don't think it will end well and I don't want to be on the wrong side of it.

This is the big one for me. I'm about to sell my Apex system and either try GHL or just not use a controller. I can do most of what I want with pH controllers and wifi power strips.

Any time you have only ONE of a type of equipment, it is a single point of failure. Eliminating failure points is more important than finding a controller that is "the least likely to fail".

 

[Montiman]

I love my apex but I don't use much Apex hardware. Stand alone doser, ATO Heater controller, light controller and just use the Apex for emergencies. If the Apex turned everything on or off my system would be OK. I love the Apex software but Don't trust the hardware or any hardware.

I don't consider switching because for me I am buying the controller for the software. I want notifications and peace of mind not a toy. I don't need to adjust my pump patterns through Apex. I program once and don't touch them for years. I don't adjust my light program for years, and when I adjust my dosers it is when I am at the tank testing.

I keep my equipment on 3 circuits including 1 not connected to the Apex incase of Apex failure.

It is just foolish to connect everything to a controller without some redundant back up. I believe that a properly set up controller will make it possible for you to give your phone dashboard to a 2 year old and know they can't kill your tank.

 

[Kyl]

Controller Gripes:

Apex: 2016 era equipment quality, company culture / direction

GHL: Doser 2.1 heads need servicing more often than I would have liked, wifi only connection to the P4/E.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

This isn't actually true. They are actually more robust and flexible. The problem is that they think like hardware people and not like software people. Once you get it, it is really flexible.

There is help here on GHL, but you may have to really hunker down to even get the help. It isn't easy.

I was watching videos from this reefautomation guy, he's definitely bias towards Apex, but he did have some points i thought. The advanced programming and coding seemed far more clunky, and he showed simple things like custom labeling were not available.

He mentions strange labels like "water fill" for leak detection. Four steps to shut off a skimmer, etc....

Is that all true?

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

I love my apex but I don't use much Apex hardware. Stand alone doser, ATO Heater controller, light controller and just use the Apex for emergencies. If the Apex turned everything on or off my system would be OK. I love the Apex software but Don't trust the hardware or any hardware.

I don't consider switching because for me I am buying the controller for the software. I want notifications and peace of mind not a toy. I don't need to adjust my pump patterns through Apex. I program once and don't touch them for years. I don't adjust my light program for years, and when I adjust my dosers it is when I am at the tank testing.

I keep my equipment on 3 circuits including 1 not connected to the Apex incase of Apex failure.

It is just foolish to connect everything to a controller without some redundant back up. I believe that a properly set up controller will make it possible for you to give your phone dashboard to a 2 year old and know they can't kill your tank.

"I want notifications and peace of mind not a toy." I highlighted exactly what i think too. Can you describe your system in more detail?

Your thinking seems inline with mine, i think.... I think Apex for notifications and safety (heater shutoff, etc.) but ecotech for wavemaker, (reliable) A/C pumps (eheims) for return, ecotech for doser, and i guess apex can control my T'5s and kessils.

I was thinking GHL for alkalinty tester (can i run ecotech dosers and GHL tester?) and ion director for other testing. My understanding is those can be used without the GHL base unit?

The Hydros wifi power module kind of turned into a none-starter for me.... but i'd rethink that if other features are better.

The Apex guy(s) online in videos is/are not my favorite personalities for sure, pretty arrogant and a bit on the used car salesmen side.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Other hates and dislikes from people??

I really appreciate it! Not meant to bash--just want to know strong opinions on these controllers so i don't waste my money or time.

 

[Montiman]

"I want notifications and peace of mind not a toy." I highlighted exactly what i think too. Can you describe your system in more detail?

Your thinking seems inline with mine, i think.... I think Apex for notifications and safety (heater shutoff, etc.) but ecotech for wavemaker, (reliable) A/C pumps (eheims) for return, ecotech for doser, and i guess apex can control my T'5s and kessils.

I was thinking GHL for alkalinty tester (can i run ecotech dosers and GHL tester?) and ion director for other testing. My understanding is those can be used without the GHL base unit?

The Hydros wifi power module kind of turned into a none-starter for me.... but i'd rethink that if other features are better.

The Apex guy(s) online in videos is/are not my favorite personalities for sure, pretty arrogant and a bit on the used car salesmen side.

Sounds like you are thinking how I do.

Most of the Apex complaints I hear are about the ATK, DOS, AFS but I don't use any of those. I use an Osmolator, Kamore Doser, and Lifegard feeder. I also plug most of my pumps into the apex for feed mode but I keep a single battery backed up power head on a different circuit. This way even if the apex turns everything off my tank can survive for days. Heater has its own controller, Ozone dial set to run constantly without overdosing.

I don't want all of this equipment plugged into any controller for the sake of playing with it. I just want the controller to stop my dosing pump if it overdoses, turn off a failing heater, and notify me if something is wrong. Buy good hardware from a hardware company and get good software from Neptune.

I really like Neptune software. I am no programmer just a fish guy, but I can tell you that my apex is easier to program than my Samsung smart home. Samsung is huge and I am sure they spent far more in R and D than Neptune did so I am very impressed with how easy and flexible APEX fusion is. It is so much more reliable and seamless than any other control app I have used in the aquarium industry.

 

[HuduVudu]

I was watching videos from this reefautomation guy, he's definitely bias towards Apex, but he did have some points i thought. The advanced programming and coding seemed far more clunky, and he showed simple things like custom labeling were not available.

He mentions strange labels like "water fill" for leak detection. Four steps to shut off a skimmer, etc....

Is that all true?

Clunky isn't the right word. Different is a better word. I have done embedded systems programming. The programing is a nicer version of that. The thinking is based around embedded systems. Legos or erector set would be more along the lines of thinking. Watch some of the video set ups and search here on the forums for GHL related set ups. You will see. The thinking is not what people are normally used too, but the logic is solid and consistent.

Also to be honest the translation can be a bit tricky to deal with. Things are in English, but sometimes things just don't come across in a way that a native speaker would say it.

You have a learning curve with GHL and to do advanced processes is hard. Honestly if you don't have the time or inclination to really understand what you are doing with the advanced stuff you probably shouldn't be doing it on either system.

 

[kenchilada]

Clunky isn't the right word. Different is a better word. I have done embedded systems programming. The programing is a nicer version of that. The thinking is based around embedded systems. Legos or erector set would be more along the lines of thinking. Watch some of the video set ups and search here on the forums for GHL related set ups. You will see. The thinking is not what people are normally used too, but the logic is solid and consistent.

Also to be honest the translation can be a bit tricky to deal with. Things are in English, but sometimes things just don't come across in a way that a native speaker would say it.

You have a learning curve with GHL and to do advanced processes is hard. Honestly if you don't have the time or inclination to really understand what you are doing with the advanced stuff you probably shouldn't be doing it on either system.

Yes it’s like embedded systems. My old tanks had Aquacontrollers and they had this same feel that has managed to linger on for decades.

I trusted that hardware much more though. I still have working Aquacontroller units that are over 15 years old and work fine. A few years ago I used one on a freshwater planted tank to control a CO2 reactor.