Desperate for Advise

[Gumbies R Us]

Just making sure Im not missing something, but isn't NeoNitro and NeoPhos used to increase your nitrate and phosphate. So in this case the OP wouldn't want to use that

Yes you are right! sorry about that. I get it confused with another product. Thank you for bringing that to my attention

 

[DanP-SD]

I would triple check the test results first. It’ll be worth the cost of multiple ICPs to be sure because, if the nutrients are that high, you’ll end up taking some fairly significant measures to get them down.

If they are that high, before embarking on serial water changes, you need to thoroughly clean the system. Vacuum the sand bed. I’d start doing so regularly and would remove some sand each time. You can replace it with new sand that you thoroughly rinse before adding. But don’t pull out more than about 30% of your sand in a given week.

Vacuum the sump out. If you can, pull out your live rock in sections to vacuum under it. While doing so, rinse the rock in clean saltwater to get any detritus out. While not necessary, running a canister filter while doing all of this will help pull out detritus you kick up before it settles back to the substrate.

You might want to mix up a small container of saltwater with a heater and small power head. Test nitrates to make sure they’re at or near zero and then soak one of the rocks from your tank in it for a few days and retest. That’ll give you an idea of how much nitrate your rock is leaching into the water and then you can assess how much work you have to get them under control.

You might also add a large refugium to start taking up nutrients. I would think chaeto will grow like a weed in that water and you’ll have to harvest it by the fistful very quickly once it grows. I think that’ll be a lot more manageable than a turf scrubber.

I wouldn’t add any corals until you get the levels down. And I’d be quick to remove anything that’s dying.

Lastly, are you using RODI water to mix salt? If not, that could be part of the problem.

 

[carri10]

This! And don't panic / rush into more things to buy/add etc, until you've verified the results, given the system an good clean and done some serious water changes. I have a 350gallon and know how much of a pain that is going to be, but reserve a weekend and push through it.

 

[aray]

Yes you are right! sorry about that. I get it confused with another product. Thank you for bringing that to my attention

Your good, I just wanted to make sure

 

[Big Rev]

I am just lost.

You have a 9 year old FOWLR tank in which you added corals 5 months ago and your nitrate is 434ppm? Do I understand that correctly.

In 9 years I would have expected very seasoned mature rock with great processing abilities.

Even north of 100ppm, That would kill my system. Fish ok, but corals?

Maybe I’m missing something.

If some test gave me that number I’d just laugh.

Yes, you are understanding correctly. My fish and corals are doing great. active, feeding, and a few (Yellow tang, Powder Blue tang, Fox face, Marine Beta, Purple Tang) have been in the tank for years. I now have added Cream Angel, Clown Tang, Red Goat, and 2 Yellow spots, and they are doing great as well! Limited corals, but my elegance opens up like crazy @ 10" and others doing good. The tank health does not match the test results. That's why I am confused by this. Input from my LFS is to not chase numbers and as long as the tank appears to be doing fine and leave well enough alone and enjoy. I'm attaching some pics...

 

[bubbgee]

Yes, you are understanding correctly. My fish and corals are doing great. active, feeding, and a few (Yellow tang, Powder Blue tang, Fox face, Marine Beta, Purple Tang) have been in the tank for years. I now have added Cream Angel, Clown Tang, Red Goat, and 2 Yellow spots, and they are doing great as well! Limited corals, but my elegance opens up like crazy @ 10" and others doing good. The tank health does not match the test results. That's why I am confused by this. Input from my LFS is to not chase numbers and as long as the tank appears to be doing fine and leave well enough alone and enjoy. I'm attaching some pics...

Numbers are out of whack so much I can't believe it's still running fine. I'm sure Randy would be interested in this anomaly. I wouldn't change anything out of sheer panic, because like you said, corals are doing great (until they don't of course). Anything that lowers nutrients too quickly will shock the tank at this point.

Outside of water changes, you can look at the following to lower PO4 and NO4:
NO4 -- algae reactor, zeovit media (works for me), refugium (works for me), carbon dosing, Nopox, TM Elimi-NP
PO4 -- kalk (binds phosphates), GFO in a reactor, lanthanum chloride (risky because you have fish but should work with half dose

 

[MnFish1]

Double check your test kits - those numbers are impossible. You should clean (siphon) your tank of detritus, but I. don't think thats what the problem is - it's your tests. Second - here is a calculator for water changes - that will help you decide how many/how much to do to get your nitrate from whatever nitrate yours really is down to where you want it )Just enter the values for your tank, nitrate, etc). https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/EffectOfWaterChanges.php

 

[PPBlimpy]

The only money I would be investing in right now is salt. I would do 2 or 3 50% water changes about a week apart. I know it is 265G system but that is how you are going to get the numbers down. then after that look at 25% percent weekly for the next couple months.

have a refugium with macro? what skimmer? do you ever blow off the rocks? how much rock in the tank? need a lot more details to start helping. pictures are helpful also

 

[Big Rev]

The only money I would be investing in right now is salt. I would do 2 or 3 50% water changes about a week apart. I know it is 265G system but that is how you are going to get the numbers down. then after that look at 25% percent weekly for the next couple months.

have a refugium with macro? what skimmer? do you ever blow off the rocks? how much rock in the tank? need a lot more details to start helping. pictures are helpful also

I don't have a refugium or reactor but considering one. I brush off the rock to remove detritus, etc. I have a Octo 200ext purchased 3 weeks ago that replaced an old Regal 250int and a Red Sea Reefmat 1200. I have 3 mountains of rock not quite sure of the amount as well as 12 2" Brightwell X-Port Bio Blocks. Included "blurry pic" of tank in earlier post.

 

[PPBlimpy]

I don't have a refugium or reactor but considering one. I brush off the rock to remove detritus, etc. I have a Octo 200ext purchased 3 weeks ago that replaced an old Regal 250int and a Red Sea Reefmat 1200. I have 3 mountains of rock not quite sure of the amount as well as 12 2" Brightwell X-Port Bio Blocks. Included "blurry pic" of tank in earlier post.

not sure how i missed the picture but thank you for pointing it out., a refugium with macro will help, maybe look into an algea turf scrubber also. GFO is good for short term use but can get expensive on big tanks.

 

[Big Rev]

Double check your test kits - those numbers are impossible. You should clean (siphon) your tank of detritus, but I. don't think thats what the problem is - it's your tests. Second - here is a calculator for water changes - that will help you decide how many/how much to do to get your nitrate from whatever nitrate yours really is down to where you want it )Just enter the values for your tank, nitrate, etc). https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/EffectOfWaterChanges.php

Numbers are from ICP test.

 

[Big Rev]

I would triple check the test results first. It’ll be worth the cost of multiple ICPs to be sure because, if the nutrients are that high, you’ll end up taking some fairly significant measures to get them down.

If they are that high, before embarking on serial water changes, you need to thoroughly clean the system. Vacuum the sand bed. I’d start doing so regularly and would remove some sand each time. You can replace it with new sand that you thoroughly rinse before adding. But don’t pull out more than about 30% of your sand in a given week.

Vacuum the sump out. If you can, pull out your live rock in sections to vacuum under it. While doing so, rinse the rock in clean saltwater to get any detritus out. While not necessary, running a canister filter while doing all of this will help pull out detritus you kick up before it settles back to the substrate.

You might want to mix up a small container of saltwater with a heater and small power head. Test nitrates to make sure they’re at or near zero and then soak one of the rocks from your tank in it for a few days and retest. That’ll give you an idea of how much nitrate your rock is leaching into the water and then you can assess how much work you have to get them under control.

You might also add a large refugium to start taking up nutrients. I would think chaeto will grow like a weed in that water and you’ll have to harvest it by the fistful very quickly once it grows. I think that’ll be a lot more manageable than a turf scrubber.

I wouldn’t add any corals until you get the levels down. And I’d be quick to remove anything that’s dying.

Lastly, are you using RODI water to mix salt? If not, that could be part of the problem.

I do use ro/di that reads 0 TDS. I keep three 35 gallon vats. 1 for fresh ro/di for ATO and 2 35ppt salt for water changes. My readings were over six hundred and now down to the four hundreds and I will test this evening hoping for even lower results. When I began this transition to reef tank my rock had whitish powder EVERYWHERE on the rock and I scrubbed the rock while doing water changes....nasty. I don't see that powdery substance anymore.

 

[Tidal Gardens]

My assumption is that if that tank was a FOWLR for years and you turned it into a reef tank, you are now noticing the many years of buildup of these elements. I'm assuming you were not testing for Nitrate and Phosphate during the FOWLR phase.

Unfortunately, I think your best option will be to do at least 2 water changes a week if not more to get a hold of this issue. With the levels this high, I am sure that it is bound up in your rock and substrate as well, and they will leach back out into the water as time goes on.

Your water change should be as big as possible for the foreseeable future. A 50% Water change will help drastically if you are able to.

 

[Big Rev]

My assumption is that if that tank was a FOWLR for years and you turned it into a reef tank, you are now noticing the many years of buildup of these elements. I'm assuming you were not testing for Nitrate and Phosphate during the FOWLR phase.

Unfortunately, I think your best option will be to do at least 2 water changes a week if not more to get a hold of this issue. With the levels this high, I am sure that it is bound up in your rock and substrate as well, and they will leach back out into the water as time goes on.

Your water change should be as big as possible for the foreseeable future. A 50% Water change will help drastically if you are able to.

Actually I did test regularly when it was a FOWLR tank. In my ignorance the 75 nitrate readings I was getting from the Hanna was not a true 75 reading but an indication that the levels were too high for the checker. Before the transition, I thought the tank nitrate levels were 75, I took a water sample to the LFS and my nitrates were below 20! I was skeptical and purchased some test corals to see how they did. They have done well, are still in the tank, but still not trusting I did the ICP test along with contacting Hanna about the 75 reading. I learned from them about the dilution method and I've been on this reduction journey ever since. I'll be purchasing more vats to mix salt for "massive" water change routine. I figure 120g is what I can manage at one time. This seems to be a consensus among respondents.

I'll admit to poor husbandry in the past, but I'm re-dedicated to doing this right. I own this. I never lost fish due to disease, etc and thought what I was doing was good for the fish. As I learn more and venture into corals I have to step-it-up considerably if I want to achieve awesome results...and I'm really attached to the animals!

 

[PPBlimpy]

your doing fine. fowlr is a throw it in and go type tank. With such a large aged tank there is going to be a lot to change up tobe a solid mixed reef but your foundation is definitely there.

I generally don't trust my local fish stores. I do have a salt water only store that has been around for 3 decades but I have been steered in a bad direction by him. A horseshoe crab should not sold knowing its going into a 13.5g. anyways. I now research everything and come to my own conclusions and stopped asking LFS questions or advise.

 

[MnFish1]

Numbers are from ICP test.

You cannot test Nitrate and Phosphate with an ICP test (those are inorganic compounds as compared to individual elements (like P = phosphorous). So - as I said - make sure the units of your test are correct. With an ICP test - the company would use a similar method to a standard chemical test to measure nitrate and Phosphate so just double check the units they are using - and their normal ranges. .

 

[MnFish1]

your doing fine. fowlr is a throw it in and go type tank. With such a large aged tank there is going to be a lot to change up tobe a solid mixed reef but your foundation is definitely there.

I generally don't trust my local fish stores. I do have a salt water only store that has been around for 3 decades but I have been steered in a bad direction by him. A horseshoe crab should not sold knowing its going into a 13.5g. anyways. I now research everything and come to my own conclusions and stopped asking LFS questions or advise.

I'm going to politely disagree- a FOWLR is not a throw it in and go type tank - The numbers presented are dangerously high for fish (though they are not accurate). A 13.5 gallon FOWLR with a damsel or pair of clownfish might be - but a large tank with assumedly large valuable fish should have water conditions that are appropriate - really pretty much the same as a reef tank without the coral.

 

[Tidal Gardens]

Actually I did test regularly when it was a FOWLR tank. In my ignorance the 75 nitrate readings I was getting from the Hanna was not a true 75 reading but an indication that the levels were too high for the checker. Before the transition, I thought the tank nitrate levels were 75, I took a water sample to the LFS and my nitrates were below 20! I was skeptical and purchased some test corals to see how they did. They have done well, are still in the tank, but still not trusting I did the ICP test along with contacting Hanna about the 75 reading. I learned from them about the dilution method and I've been on this reduction journey ever since. I'll be purchasing more vats to mix salt for "massive" water change routine. I figure 120g is what I can manage at one time. This seems to be a consensus among respondents.

I'll admit to poor husbandry in the past, but I'm re-dedicated to doing this right. I own this. I never lost fish due to disease, etc and thought what I was doing was good for the fish. As I learn more and venture into corals I have to step-it-up considerably if I want to achieve awesome results...and I'm really attached to the animals!

Ok, based on the extremely high levels in your original post, I would only think they could get that high if you didn't know they were that high, because it would be extremely dangerous at that level.

Either way, more water changes will be your answer here. You can also feed less for the time being as well till you get it under control.

 

[PPBlimpy]

I'm going to politely disagree- a FOWLR is not a throw it in and go type tank - The numbers presented are dangerously high for fish (though they are not accurate). A 13.5 gallon FOWLR with a damsel or pair of clownfish might be - but a large tank with assumedly large valuable fish should have water conditions that are appropriate - really pretty much the same as a reef tank without the coral.

I guess I should reword that. In my experience over the years and seeing how people run Fowlr tanks, they seem to be treated as a throw it in and go. People don't pay the attention that is needed to keep one up properly. I feel this is mostly because the fish have a much higher tolerance for n04 and p04. water swaps and rock cleaning it neglected.

Just stopped by a business yesterday that I have driven by daily for 2 years and asked about their tank that I see thru the window, a 265G setup. a Fowlr and it looks like crap and not maintained, crap everywhere. The guy admitted they don't do anything to it anymore. Been set up 8 years. has 2 clown fish, a trigger and a couple damsels. They want to get rid of the saltwater and do a freshwater tank. not saying thats ever fowlr out there but a majority are

 

[MnFish1]

I guess I should reword that. In my experience over the years and seeing how people run Fowlr tanks, they seem to be treated as a throw it in and go. People don't pay the attention that is needed to keep one up properly. I feel this is mostly because the fish have a much higher tolerance for n04 and p04. water swaps and rock cleaning it neglected.

Just stopped by a business yesterday that I have driven by daily for 2 years and asked about their tank that I see thru the window, a 265G setup. a Fowlr and it looks like crap and not maintained, crap everywhere. The guy admitted they don't do anything to it anymore. Been set up 8 years. has 2 clown fish, a trigger and a couple damsels. They want to get rid of the saltwater and do a freshwater tank. not saying thats ever fowlr out there but a majority are

Yes - I couldn't tell if that was your point - but that was mine - though you technically may not 'need' to do them the average FOWLR tank probably needs them more than others