Devils advocating

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Wildreefs, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. Wildreefs

    Wildreefs Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    51
    trying to be constructive , something is not adding up. Assuming the parasite information abroad is correct, there are entirely too many mishaps for this to be a science or exact process.

    Restarted my tank, bleached down, excessive amount of bleach, air dryer, and recycled.

    The few fish I have gotten all went thru 2 weekends of copper. Some did not make it thru copper, two just shut down eating altogether. 2.25 coppper power level.

    A look at the math: ich can stay on the fish 3-7 days before falling off encycsting to substrate . So 14 days continuos copper, from the moment they were bought (lfs bag into qt), already set at 2.25 copper, would cover the supposed 7 day max they can last on fish.

    No chance of absorption, only Pvc hiding and no substrate. Measured with copper Hannah meter. From there into tank, and boom ich. Nothing was added at all to tank,
    No inverts, coral, algae, nothing other than the fish which were in copper for 14 days.

    All equipment bleached , dryer out for one week. Tank and rock, 50 gallons, 5 gallons of bleach, rinsed, aired out, restarted.

    All fish also went thru metroplex, dosed at the recommended dose per 10 gallons, and after all the clowns succumbed to brook.

    Giant waste of fish lives, money and especially time. Def not breaking tank down again, not so ich cause of the work, just because what do I do different? Either 1, copper is ineffective, 2 they can stay in fish more than 14 days (experts say 7) or ich is in every tank.

    Metro didn’t work, so great there’s formalin. Which happens to be carcinogenic , and apparently cuts the fish lifespan short . So I suppose
    I can restart tank again, and use formalin in everyone, knowing it could cut there lives in half, and doesn’t cure ich, not interested.

    My trusted lfs predicted these quarantine issues before I bought fish. Believing I was smarter than him, being on a message board and all, I thought otherwise, and boy was I wrong
     

  2. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    6,862
    Likes Received:
    20,875
    Location:
    Westfield, Indiana
    Something is amiss with your copper process. It has to be. Or you didn't get your tank sterilized properly. Or you transferred a viable encysted tomont when you transferred the fish out of copper.

    I have treated in the upwards of 300 fish with copper power at 1.75ppm and NEVER had ich or velvet show up post copper. Trust me plenty of these fish showed symptoms of velvet and ich when they went into copper.

    The fish probably stopped eating In copper because 2.25ppm is too high IMO.

    You had to do something wrong, ich is NOT in every tank.
     
  3. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Hospitality Award Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    Messages:
    18,226
    Likes Received:
    37,586
    Location:
    Carmel, Indiana
    I agree. Sorry for the trouble op.
     
    Manthanol and MnFish1 like this.
  4. drstardust

    drstardust Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2017
    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    954
    I'm not sure I follow the story exactly. So you did 14 days of copper in a QT (agree, that level is too high), and then transferred the fish...to what? To your display tank? To a separate QT? If it was a DT, was that DT appropriately fallowed for 76 days? If to a separate QT, was it appropriately fallowed or sterilized beforehand?
     
    NotASpammerDude and MnFish1 like this.
  5. Wildreefs

    Wildreefs Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    51
    Could have been I didn’t sterilize correctly, anymore bleach in the tank would have Killeen the people in the house. 5 gallon in 50 gallon tank, 24 hours, then dried out one week I thought for sure would have done it.

    From the science of the this site, would have been impossible to transfer a toning. Fish went from lfs bag of water, directly into coppered water, no ramp up, and sat in it longer than the 7 days the can stay on the fish.

    Also went thru excessive amount of metro, chromis and damsel still had the classic uro signs before perishing .
     
  6. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    6,862
    Likes Received:
    20,875
    Location:
    Westfield, Indiana
    I'm not sure I completely understand what you mean here. You are correct in the fact that trophonts for ich only stay attached to the fish for up to 7 days, velvet is even less around 48 hours. The way it works is those trophonts fall off the fish into reproduction. Then they become tomonts and encyst to anything hard in the tank, glass, PVC, algae clip etc. Then those release free swimmers that seek a fish to host and start the process all over again.

    So the fish "should" be clean after 7 days of therapuetic copper. However there are still active parasites in the different stages within the tank because copper only kills the final free swimming stage. So it basically creates a shield to prevent the fish from being reinfected.

    So you have clean fish, but you certainly to not have a clean tank, if that makes sense.

    I would never go less than 10 days of therapuetic copper to be safe, the best practice with additional insurance is 14 days. Even at the 14 day mark you have to carefully transfer the fish because if you get ahold of a tomont, while it's unlikely it will be problematic.

    How did you transfer your fish? Did you use the same net to move them from QT to DT?
     
    MnFish1 likes this.
  7. Wildreefs

    Wildreefs Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    51
    Was display tank, completely bleached, rinsed , and air dryer with fans for one week before refilling. They sat in copper for 2 weeks.

    Checked my lfs copper level, he uses copper power, and his level was 2.7. Lionfish, eels, Pygmy angels, wrasses etc all in it. I’m not thinking for a second my 2.25 was too high, proof is in front of me
     
  8. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Valuable Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2016
    Messages:
    4,932
    Likes Received:
    4,660
    Curious - how do you know it was a parasite that even killed your fish. The amount of bleach you used was very very high. unless im misunderstanding. Bleach can also cause hemorrhagic lesions on fish (like uronema) which I assume you mean by your abbreviation. There is no way - with out a biopsy to prove beyond a doubt what 'went wrong'. I think its too soon to blame the message board though:). Sorry for your problems:)
     
  9. Robin Haselden

    Robin Haselden Turtle R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,472
    Likes Received:
    18,012
    Location:
    South Carolina
    How were rocks sanitized? How did you seed beneficial bacteria? Something doesn't make sense here.
     
    drstardust and MnFish1 like this.
  10. drstardust

    drstardust Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2017
    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    954
    Well, the ability of fish to tolerate chelated copper above a level of 2 can vary. In general, our collective experience suggests a lower level yielding better success. But, nevertheless, this would not explain how ich got into your DT, if that is indeed the case. Sorry for your troubles. We are trying to help, we are not your enemy :)
     
    Gmj4409 likes this.
  11. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    6,862
    Likes Received:
    20,875
    Location:
    Westfield, Indiana
    I would be concerned about damage to tank seals as well at the bleach concentration we are talking here. All that is necessary is 200ppm to sanitize.
     
    MnFish1 and Gmj4409 like this.
  12. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    6,862
    Likes Received:
    20,875
    Location:
    Westfield, Indiana
    It was definitely high enough to not have to worry about ich or velvet.

    Some (not all) fish will become lethargic and stop eating north of 2.0ppm.
     
    MnFish1 likes this.
  13. Wildreefs

    Wildreefs Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    51
    I did do the 14 days, went into a quarantine tank that was brand new, newly mixed water.

    Fish came home in lfs bag, directly in tank with 2.25 copper. Shouldn’t have been any stages other than what’s in fish to fall off and try to encyst .

    Transfer was done by my hand, no net.
     
    MnFish1 likes this.
  14. HotRocks

    HotRocks Fish Fanatic! Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    6,862
    Likes Received:
    20,875
    Location:
    Westfield, Indiana
    It doesn't matter that they went directly into copper. The parasites can still cycle. Copper only kills free swimmers.

    Do you have pics of the fish? Are you sure it's ich you are dealing with? Have you dewormed them? Sometimes flukes can look very similar to ich.
     
    MnFish1 likes this.
  15. Wildreefs

    Wildreefs Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    51
    No one here that I am aware of is blaming message boards. I just don’t find the the numbers, time spans, chemicals to be black and white, more or less guess work.

    And bleach causing lesions? The bleach was out of the tank long before anything living went into it. Was bleached, rinsed several times and air dried for a week, then new water was out in to cycle, which was another month. So from the time the tank had bleach in it, to fish going in, was every bit of 5 weeks.
     
    MnFish1 likes this.
  16. NotASpammerDude

    NotASpammerDude Active Member Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2018
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    360
    A brand new quarantine tank is not cycled, were you checking ammonia levels during the copper treatment? That would be necessary for any newly setup tank no matter what someone did to cycle it.
     
    MnFish1 likes this.
  17. Wildreefs

    Wildreefs Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    51
    Rocks sat in tank, old sand removed, when bleach went in for 24 bours, then rinsed many times. New sand added.

    For cycling I used bio Spira, and waiter about a month for it to cycle, adding pure
    Ammonia to keep cycle alive when ammonia dropped to zero.
     
    NotASpammerDude likes this.
  18. Wildreefs

    Wildreefs Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    51

    All great questions, however I’m unsure how that would let ich in.

    I used two 20 gallons tanks as ttm with copper. Didn’t worry about ammonia, cause after they were in tank 1. For about 60 hours (not quite 3 full days) the my went into tank 2 for the same. During the transition, tank 1 was bleached down for a few hours, wiped down with vinegar , and hand dried for at least 24 hours before reuse .

    I mixed up saltwater in neutral cat, for a least a day or so, and added the appropriate mls of copper to it before adding it to new tank.
     
  19. Wildreefs

    Wildreefs Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    51
    If I understand correctly , fish gong into sterile tank, no other life forms have been in it with copper in it, would not have any ich. Add fish to it, with copper, the inky thing the fish could bring are free swimmers when they fall off which woud be zapped.
     
  20. naterealbig

    naterealbig Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    496
    No they don't fall off as free swimmers. They fall off the fish, attach to the system surface, multiply, and then "hatch" as free swimmers, which should be zapped by the copper.

    I think one of the scenarios that @HotRocks mentioned, is that a newly-hatched free swimmer (theront) could have gotten on your hand and transferred to the new tank when you transferred the fish, before the copper killed it.

    The only way to guarantee this doesn't happen is to quarantine fish @ full copper/hypo/etc for 76 (72?) days. Anything short of this, and we assume some risk. This is likely the specific scenario that caused hotrocks to recommend transferring to a sterile untreated QT for observation before adding to the display.

    Just my thoughts.

    For what it's worth, because I don't have room for a second quarantine, I also transfer directly from QT to display.

    Question: is there a better time during the day that the transfer from QT to display could be made that would minimize this risk?
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    Bleigh and NotASpammerDude like this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page