Diatom filter for treating external parasites?

[robert]

Along with the DE, I also run 120w of uv. I have a reef octopus 6000 ext running - but it produces nothing - not that its a bad skimmer - theres just nothing in the water for it to skim. I leave the skimmer running because it continually fills with baby trocus snails. I guess the skimmer catches the gamates and saves them from the DE filter. Every once in a while I fish them out and move them into the main display.

I have a Super clean system. I run bare-bottom on the display. The only rock in the system is in the display. No rock in the sump. No filter socks - no bio-balls. The only things in the sump are to dc pumps for the UV and skimmer and a sulphur denitrator.

I get very minimal deutritus - what I do get accumulates in two small spots which I vaccume out every week or two.

I have very little algae - but some - enough obviously to keep the trocus going. The algae I get is tiny spots on the glass - you have to look at an angle to see it. The trocus spend most of their time on the rocks not the glass. No coraline - a spot or two on the bottom of the tank.

DE takes out everything bigger than 1 micron and some stuff down to .4 microns. This means its taking out a algae , protozoans and a considerable portion of the bactera in the water. What it misses the UV takes care of.

I run a high load of fish - most of my tangs are in the 6" range. Lots of wrasses, damsels, chromis, etc. - many fish - I'm sure some would say too many.

I have a few assorted corals - maybe twenty or so - lps as I don't have the light yet to do SPS...3xAP700s are coming. And bubble tip nems - maybe twenty-thrity. Their numbers are continually increasing.

24x7 DE filteration has not hurt anything - No issue with silicates.

Common lore would say that DE would strip the water of important phytoplankton required for coral growth and that corals will starve and die.
That DE would produce silicates and cause diatom blooms.
That DE can't remove vibirio, ich, velevet, flukes and flatworms.

None of the "common lore" is correct. Ich and velvet resolve in days. I have no algae - my corals grow fine - my fish are fat and healthy - I only pre-dip - no quarantine. I rarely test for anything and overall my maintenece is less.

 

[4FordFamily]

If you are not skimming anything out, then your skimmer is A) not working or B) not adjusted properly. I remove a TON of nastiness with my skimmers each day, I have them set to skim very wet. It's quite effective at allowing me to keep my bioload quite heavy.

Even my QT has a skimmer, and with a SINGLE fish in a 55 gallon tank, with weekly 80% water changes it skims out a ton of nastiness. With all of those tangs, your skimmer is simply not doing its job, IMO.

Another frequently overlooked reason to use a skimmer is that it can increase the oxygen saturation of the water significantly.

 

[cono]

Just wanted your opinion on my system since you are the only one here with a tank older than me lol

 

[Humblefish]

Ich and velvet resolve in days.

How can ich & velvet resolve in days when in at least one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts? Are you saying the diatom sucks all the protomonts out before they have a chance to encyst?

 

[ca1ore]

Just wanted your opinion on my system since you are the only one here with a tank older than me lol

Hah, I wish!

 

[scardall]

I would be happy to share what I know. Unfortunately I don't know of any commercial diatom filters specifically designed for reef tanks. The last was vortex I believe - they worked great but were such a pain that they probably singlehandly killed the segment. Even if you found one - don't buy it.

I build my own. Its not at all hard. installing them is a way to make their use practical requires some changes to your system - but these frankly are for the better. How bigs the system?

I have a Votex XL. If they would fix at least one design flaw I would use mine more often. The in/out tubes are too dam close, thus causing a hose to come loose from time to time. 2nd) A real nice fix would be how they seal motor assy to jar.

 

[Paul B]

You need to put thin ty wraps on those hoses. Host clamps are to thick. It is a stupid design.

 

[Paul B]

How can ich & velvet resolve in days when in at least one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts? Are you saying the diatom sucks all the protomonts out before they have a chance to encyst?

I always had a problem with Burgess theories although 72 days may be the correct number, I really don't know. But if any parasite went into a properly running diatom filter. It ain't coming out. Ich and velvet are both easy diseases to cure. Unless of course they are in a reef and your fish should not have those things bother them because they should be immune.

 

[Harold Green]

I don't believe anyone has mentioned that the ick life cycle is temperature dependent. If you plan on filtering the ick out raise the tank temperature to between 82and85 depending on what temperature your tank occupants can handle. You'll force a fast cycle on the ick organism so it can be removed during the swimming stage and also quickly kill the cells attached to the fish as they complete their life cycle. I'm not familiar with the micron size of free swimming ick but I mentioned to Paul that micron canister filter elements are available. They only filter down to 10-15 microns but as with the powder as the filter stops up it removes ever smaller particles. You can run the filter elements for several days before they need to be washed to kill and clean anything removed from the tank. With two elements you could possibly keep the filter running for weeks if you desired and the canisters or other method you run the filter elements in are more likely to withstand salt water.

 

[Humblefish]

I always had a problem with Burgess theories although 72 days may be the correct number, I really don't know.

I think you're right. I think strains of ich exist with life cycles far longer than just 72 days. It would explain why some have reported going fallow for up to 90 days and ich still comes back.

 

[robert]

marineland micron cartridge...

How can ich & velvet resolve in days when in at least one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts? Are you saying the diatom sucks all the protomonts out before they have a chance to encyst?

From the persective of the fish - and from my perspective caring for them - its resolved as the rate of reinfection is practically nil. As the parasite drops off the - the disease clears. You'll literally see the improvment the next day.

From the perspective of the tank - your right - the life-cycle of the infective agent will dictate how long it will take to completely clear the tank...

 

[robert]

If you are not skimming anything out, then your skimmer is A) not working or B) not adjusted properly. I remove a TON of nastiness with my skimmers each day, I have them set to skim very wet. It's quite effective at allowing me to keep my bioload quite heavy.

Even my QT has a skimmer, and with a SINGLE fish in a 55 gallon tank, with weekly 80% water changes it skims out a ton of nastiness. With all of those tangs, your skimmer is simply not doing its job, IMO.

Another frequently overlooked reason to use a skimmer is that it can increase the oxygen saturation of the water significantly.

The skimmer cannot work as the DE is taking out the organics the skimmer needs to work and is designed to remove - meaning DE filteration is more effective than skimming.

 

[robert]

I don't believe anyone has mentioned that the ick life cycle is temperature dependent. If you plan on filtering the ick out raise the tank temperature to between 82and85 depending on what temperature your tank occupants can handle. You'll force a fast cycle on the ick organism so it can be removed during the swimming stage and also quickly kill the cells attached to the fish as they complete their life cycle. I'm not familiar with the micron size of free swimming ick but I mentioned to Paul that micron canister filter elements are available. They only filter down to 10-15 microns but as with the powder as the filter stops up it removes ever smaller particles. You can run the filter elements for several days before they need to be washed to kill and clean anything removed from the tank. With two elements you could possibly keep the filter running for weeks if you desired and the canisters or other method you run the filter elements in are more likely to withstand salt water.

Marineland sells a pleated micron cartridge which is very effective. It is designed to operate in their magnum 350 filter and is a viable alternative to DE in smaller systems. As with DE - these willl clog in a short time. You can't just rinse them. You need to soak in bleach to clean them - so if you go this route buy a couple of spare cartriges so one can be soaking while the other is running.

Rasing the temp to accelearate the cycle is a good thought - would it lower the O2 saturation of the water putting more stress on the fishes breathing? It might be a good idea if you're going the fallow system route.

 

[robert]

Any reason to think a DE filter will contribute silicate to the water and promote a live diatom bloom (part of the reason I have never run one on SW)?

No - its a myth...
Everything dissolves to some extent - some say the glass of the tank can add silicates...
I've nerver had a diatom bloom from running DE.

 

[cono]

So would the de filter work if I still have 4 fish in my tank ? Like I mentioned in my other posts I have a 180 gallon reef ( trying to make it a reef) and they were the only ones that survived and really don't want to really stress them out by putting them in quarenteen.

 

[robert]

Yes - although I expect to hear protests to the contrary...

I think I have shown - conclusively - that DE will remove free swimming trophants for ich and velvet. As paul says - if they go in they're not coming out.

I've given the turnover calculations to size your system. I use 4.5 total-volume-turn overs per hour for acute treatment. For maintenence - it can be much less.

I've given citations - not just my opinion. This has successfully been put into practice by qualified people in public aquariums, and the list of harmful parasites and protozoans which have a free-swimming stage and which can be removed by DE goes far beyond Ich and Velvet.

Each system will be different of course...how you exploit DE fiters is deterimed by your particular system. Factors will include whether you have a sand bed. Number and location of your low flow zones etc. How to set up flow in a system is a subject all on its own...but it is very important...and likely just as contentious.

A point made by Ca1ore in post #14 is spot on- "however, if we accept that ich is far less problematic in the ocean than in our tanks due to 'dilution' then the role of the DE filter (or UV) may be a mechanical analog for that dilution effect."

 

[4FordFamily]

I think what's actually going on is that your fish are building a resistance and you're crediting diatom filter.

Same thing that happens with every conceivable snake oil remedy. Truth is many fish can build a resistance (not a true immunity but one that can function nearly as such)

 

[robert]

I think what's actually going on is that your fish are building a resistance and you're crediting diatom filter.

Same thing that happens with every conceivable snake oil remedy. Truth is many fish can build a resistance (not a true immunity but one that can function nearly as such)

No its easily tested - see my post #23...

"And that is exactly what they do at large public aquariums...They breed live-bearing freshwater fish that are then aclimated to salt. These are placed in a net enclosure - to prevent their escape and/ot to prevent them from being eaten - and are placed into the tank under suspicion for parasite infestation. These are then removed - sedated and examined for the determination of the presence and tpye of parasites. From there decisions can be made for the best course action."

This was the method used by Dr. Adrian Lawler who championed DE filters for the control and eradication of Ich and Velvet in public aquariums and commercial aquaculture facilities. Many citations above...

 

[Harold Green]

I see filtering as an acceptable method of treating a tank with one or more fish showing signs of ick. One of the biggest lfs in my area generally has ick in most of their marine tanks. I usually don't bother with quarantine since I only have a few sturdy fish in what is primarily an sps tank. Last month I added a six line that began showing some ick on it's sides. It's in a large uncrowded tank. It was eating well and within two weeks the ick cleared up on the wrasse without becoming a problem on the other fish. I've always heard that a good portion of fish coming down with ick is because the fish is stressed and providing a low stress, healthy environment can save most fish if the fish is still healthy enough to recover. I don't recommend this to anyone but it works for me. However I do make a point of examining each fish for any visible parasites before I purchase. As difficult as it can be to catch a fish in a large reef tank and not wanting to add chemicals to the tank I would try a micron filter first along with raising the tank temperature if it's on the low side.

 

[robert]

I see filtering as an acceptable method of treating a tank with one or more fish showing signs of ick. One of the biggest lfs in my area generally has ick in most of their marine tanks. I usually don't bother with quarantine since I only have a few sturdy fish in what is primarily an sps tank. Last month I added a six line that began showing some ick on it's sides. It's in a large uncrowded tank. It was eating well and within two weeks the ick cleared up on the wrasse without becoming a problem on the other fish. I've always heard that a good portion of fish coming down with ick is because the fish is stressed and providing a low stress, healthy environment can save most fish if the fish is still healthy enough to recover. I don't recommend this to anyone but it works for me. However I do make a point of examining each fish for any visible parasites before I purchase. As difficult as it can be to catch a fish in a large reef tank and not wanting to add chemicals to the tank I would try a micron filter first along with raising the tank temperature if it's on the low side.

Filteration is non-existant in many if not most "modern" reef-systems. A skimmer is not filteration and filter socks @100 microns do next to nothing.

Have to leave - will take your points up later...