Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[RMS18]

3 hour update fish are fine. Ammonia is up to .008. I ended up dosing .16ppm

 

[Jolanta]

3 hour update fish are fine. Ammonia is up to .008. I ended up dosing .16ppm

Keep us updated! And good luck to you!

 

[RMS18]

Last update Before lights out for me. Fish are fine, they are all sleeping in their usual spots. Ammonia is down to .006. The smell of chlorine is gone.

Not sure if .16ppm was enough to kill anything. I'm going to dose again Sunday night with the same .16ppm.

 

[taricha]

#17 was a dead-end citation, but it turns up on Google Scholar....hosted over at NIH:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691843/pdf/15475328.pdf

I couldn't glean any tidbits just this quick, but they do address the subject and provide more references......I'll finish reading when I get another chance.

That was the one I mentioned earlier. Found that after 9 days darkness, amphidinium carterae couldn't be regrown. Signs point to a self-destruct sequence starting at day 5.
Pants on the other hand, says that he had people's tank Dinos in shipping tubes for weeks with no light (totally dark, or just mostly dark?) and they remained alive.
Maybe ours lack the self-destruct sequence. I'll try to test this on other amphidinium when I get enough for a good sample.

 

[taricha]

New sample from today
They dont form strings, no more on corals, only some small spots on rocks
That could be ostreopsis round cell or what kind are they?

Read all your stuff...
Ok, I have minor tweak ideas if you are game for it. It's mostly a continuation in the same direction you've already gone. It's what I'd do in your spot if I were you.
Push the oxidation further.
1. Keep vibrant
2. keep peroxide around same amount (go up or down as you see fit), but transition from 3 daily doses to 2. One in day. One at night. I found ostis were more hurt by 2ml at once than 4ml spread 1ml at a time every couple hours)
3. Add UV - the mechanism of UV damage to algae is by oxidation damage in the cell. Peroxide should make UV damage worse and harder to recover from.
3b. ozone too if you had an ozone setup.
4. Remove other possible oxidizer & vibrant targets/neutralizers, algae - even in sump. You've already done this with chaeto. I've found small amounts of algae protects Dino's from peroxide effectively.
5. Blast debris & detritus off of rocks. Remove as much as possible by skimming or filter socks or whatever.

If necessary, to escalate it further, we can do a density weighted solution of peroxide and target a ml or 2 right on the brown spots, to increase contact.

I'd also get some metro, for next part when we are convinced the Dino's are gone, and we want to add diversity and stop indiscriminate killing of vibrant and peroxide.

 

[jlear3]

Sorry to ask, but can anone involved in this thread kinda give me a cliff notes version on metroplex? is it killing corals or anemones?

 

[mandrieu]

Read all your stuff...
Ok, I have minor tweak ideas if you are game for it. It's mostly a continuation in the same direction you've already gone. It's what I'd do in your spot if I were you.
Push the oxidation further.
1. Keep vibrant
2. keep peroxide around same amount (go up or down as you see fit), but transition from 3 daily doses to 2. One in day. One at night. I found ostis were more hurt by 2ml at once than 4ml spread 1ml at a time every couple hours)
3. Add UV - the mechanism of UV damage to algae is by oxidation damage in the cell. Peroxide should make UV damage worse and harder to recover from.
3b. ozone too if you had an ozone setup.
4. Remove other possible oxidizer & vibrant targets/neutralizers, algae - even in sump. You've already done this with chaeto. I've found small amounts of algae protects Dino's from peroxide effectively.
5. Blast debris & detritus off of rocks. Remove as much as possible by skimming or filter socks or whatever.

If necessary, to escalate it further, we can do a density weighted solution of peroxide and target a ml or 2 right on the brown spots, to increase contact.

I'd also get some metro, for next part when we are convinced the Dino's are gone, and we want to add diversity and stop indiscriminate killing of vibrant and peroxide.

This is great stuff @taricha. Having said that, I'm I mistaken or we had concluded (here and in RC) that H2O2 (and I can testify the same applies to bleach - at least in the concentrations I tried in my tank) does pretty much nothing to cysts?

 

[RMS18]

Sorry to ask, but can anone involved in this thread kinda give me a cliff notes version on metroplex? is it killing corals or anemones?

I do not think anyone lost anything dosing Metro recommended dose. Some doubled dose with no ill effects. Myself included.

 

[mandrieu]

As a side note, since I'm working on removing the sand, a couple of days ago I had no option but to top off with saltwater (Instant Ocean - normal) to maintain salinity... OMG... it amazes me, the reaction was almost instantaneous (I mean figuratively - several hours). Boom! Gazillions of them all over the tank

 

[mandrieu]

I do not think anyone lost anything dosing Metro recommended dose. Some doubled dose with no ill effects. Myself included.

Yep. No visible losses in my case either.

 

[RMS18]

As a side note, since I'm working on removing the sand, a couple of days ago I had no option but to top off with saltwater (Instant Ocean - normal) to maintain salinity... OMG... it amazes me, the reaction was almost instantaneous (I mean figuratively - several hours). Boom! Gazillions of them all over the tank

Strange WC do not do this with me.

 

[mandrieu]

Strange WC do not do this with me.

What salt mix do you use?

 

[RMS18]

What salt mix do you use?

Reef crystals

 

[taricha]

This is great stuff @taricha. Having said that, I'm I mistaken or we had concluded (here and in RC) that H2O2 (and I can testify the same applies to bleach - at least in the concentrations I tried in my tank) does pretty much nothing to cysts?

Protected by a sand bed, nothing gets cysts, not even bleach. Jolanta is bare bottom though, so possibly different result. And blasting debris into water should actually expose cysts to the oxidation stress.

Besides, my idea is to knock back all Dino's to invisible/inactive and then use metro to keep them that way while other life gets established for a couple weeks. Cyst elimination not necessary.

 

[mandrieu]

Reef crystals

Thanks. Regarding water changes, my case is similar to the many documented cases. If I don't do WCs, they slow down (don't die by any means). If I do WCs... boom. 100% consistency. Haven't tried other salt mixes tho... maybe I should to see what happens

 

[mandrieu]

Protected by a sand bed, nothing gets cysts, not even bleach. Jolanta is bare bottom though, so possibly different result.
Besides, my idea is to knock back all Dino's to invisible/inactive and then use metro to keep them that way while other life gets established for a couple weeks.

Great. I hope I can finish removing the sand soon so I can follow the same process and see if we have some level of consistency in the good/bad results

 

[RMS18]

14 hour update fish are fine. Lights are about to come on. The sand bed is cleaner than normal. Ammonia is still at .006. I average .003. Not a huge difference but something changed.

 

[taricha]

As a side note, since I'm working on removing the sand, a couple of days ago I had no option but to top off with saltwater (Instant Ocean - normal) to maintain salinity... OMG... it amazes me, the reaction was almost instantaneous (I mean figuratively - several hours). Boom! Gazillions of them all over the tank

Do you know if alk may have bottomed out before water change, or is it another one of those mystery trace elements hiding in our salt below the triton detection levels.

It's so friggin weird. Microbes are supposed to have a lag phase of hours to days where they adjust to new environment before they can go exponential growth again. Not dinos.
Read a paper on P deprivation for a Dino. It grows in size but can't split, but it gets everything ready to split so as soon as P returns - boom, rapid fire cell division.

 

[mandrieu]

Do you know if alk may have bottomed out before water change

hmmm... didn't test alk before WC. I should know better. I will next time

It's so friggin weird. Microbes are supposed to have a lag phase of hours to days where they adjust to new environment before they can go exponential growth again. Not dinos.

Yeah, this guys are really something. I would say they exploded between 12 to 24 hours after the WC I did to maintain salinity, which was ridiculously small, about 5 Gallons in my 125 gallon tank

 

[Jolanta]

Read all your stuff...
Ok, I have minor tweak ideas if you are game for it. It's mostly a continuation in the same direction you've already gone. It's what I'd do in your spot if I were you.
Push the oxidation further.
1. Keep vibrant
2. keep peroxide around same amount (go up or down as you see fit), but transition from 3 daily doses to 2. One in day. One at night. I found ostis were more hurt by 2ml at once than 4ml spread 1ml at a time every couple hours)
3. Add UV - the mechanism of UV damage to algae is by oxidation damage in the cell. Peroxide should make UV damage worse and harder to recover from.
3b. ozone too if you had an ozone setup.
4. Remove other possible oxidizer & vibrant targets/neutralizers, algae - even in sump. You've already done this with chaeto. I've found small amounts of algae protects Dino's from peroxide effectively.
5. Blast debris & detritus off of rocks. Remove as much as possible by skimming or filter socks or whatever.

If necessary, to escalate it further, we can do a density weighted solution of peroxide and target a ml or 2 right on the brown spots, to increase contact.

I'd also get some metro, for next part when we are convinced the Dino's are gone, and we want to add diversity and stop indiscriminate killing of vibrant and peroxide.

Thank you so much to take your time to help me! I already increased peroxide to 10 ml 3 times a day and Vibrant from 17 ml two times a week to 20 ml two times a week, I removed the chaeto and now almost have clear rocks, with some very small brown patches and a little bit of hair algae but everyday more coraline is showing up, so I think is a good sign. My barebottom is getting green and not brown as before.

I dont see string only small patches of brown
My zoas are full open

I think my tank is going good way and now I see some increase of vitality of my round dinos becouse I needed to put some new salt mix becouse of my salinity dropped, so Im putting new saltwater when evaporation takes place and they love new salt mix.
I was wondering that maybe the low salinity made dinos week and let the green stuff win, or maybe is peroxide or vibrant.
As you say it would be a good idea to buy UV and clear really good my rocks, blowing detritus off. I will try it. Maybe also try metro, I think I will blow my rocks and syphon detritus daily to a filter sock and make two peroxide doses a day but increased amount, only Im scared to kill my cleaner shrimp Thank you very much for all your time and advices Taricha!