Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[RMS18]

My plan against Dinoflagellates for today.
1.- I will remove all rock and place them in RODI water after brushing them.
2.- Clean and remove any visible dino in the tank (as much as possible)
3.- Filter all my tank water through a sock
4.- Clean wave makers and cables
5.- Dose H2O2 in the middle of the day as @mcarroll said

Probably this is a loose battle but I wont quit.

Add some Metro in there, mess with their reproductive system.

 

[RMS18]

Anybody look into ich x by Hikari? Yes it not coral or invert safe.

 

[mcarroll]

I saw a tank infested with dinos also in local fish store.

If we could know for sure, I bet it goes back to everyone's tank – even in the stores – being "jacked up" on GFO and carbon dosing.

Dino blooms (or something) seem to be a natural side-effect....at least under common tank conditions.

 

[mcarroll]

Anybody look into ich x by Hikari? Yes it not coral or invert safe.

If you're going to keep going on the nuke route...

It's not the same thing, but I'd be curious to hear someone's results from trying Ich Attack®. (Herbal napthoquinones.)

I didn't have time to dive really deep, but I did see (on google scholar) at least some evidence of napthoquinones being tested and working against Amphidinium sp.

 

[mandrieu]

It's not the same thing, but I'd be curious to hear someone's results from trying Ich Attack®. (Herbal napthoquinones.)

I tried it before my tank reset, a year and a half ago. I was really desperate. Did nothing at all

 

[mcarroll]

I tried it before my tank reset, a year and a half ago. I was really desperate. Did nothing at all

Any chance to try it outside the tank to gauge the effect on the critter?

And did you simply follow package directions? (I'll try a search in case any of this is posted!!!)

It'd be cool if you could elaborate on it if it was anything other than follow package directions–fail–done.

 

[mandrieu]

Any chance to try it outside the tank to gauge the effect on the critter?

And did you simply follow package directions? (I'll try a search in case any of this is posted!!!)

It'd be cool if you could elaborate on it if it was anything other than follow package directions–fail–done.

If I remember correctly, it was a really long shot. I was desperate and I had a bottle of it from my lousy rookie (pre-Cupramine) days, and said, what the heck, if this is supposed to cure ich (a kind of dino) it may do something. I tried at 1x, 2x, 3x the dose... Nothing, except for the tank water looking like English tea for a few days (LOL). It never worked against ich either for me. Might be worth emailing to the manufacturer though, and see if they have something to say.

 

[RMS18]

I just dosed .18ppm. Fish are fine. I spoke with Randy Holmes and he made a good point. Just because I added .18ppm of chlorine doesn't mean the levels in the water are .18. The levels in the water might be less. I would have needed a chlorine test kit to know this.

 

[mandrieu]

I just dosed .18ppm. Fish are fine. I spoke with Randy Holmes and he made a good point. Just because I added .18ppm of chlorine doesn't mean the levels in the water are .18. The levels in the water might be less. I would have needed a chlorine test kit to know this.

Cool. How's the tank looking today, dino-wise?

 

[taricha]

I removed the chaeto and now almost have clear rocks, with some very small brown patches and a little bit of hair algae but everyday more coraline is showing up, so I think is a good sign. My barebottom is getting green and not brown as before.

I dont see string only small patches of brown
My zoas are full open

I think my tank is going good way and now I see some increase of vitality of my round dinos becouse I needed to put some new salt mix becouse of my salinity dropped, so Im putting new saltwater when evaporation takes place and they love new salt mix.

Thanks for your awesome detailed reports.
Some trace element or Alk had been depleted, and they react to its addition.
If you top off salt mix again, check alk before, and see if it's super low. If not, it's probably some undetectable trace element.

As you say it would be a good idea to buy UV and clear really good my rocks, blowing detritus off. I will try it. Maybe also try metro, I think I will blow my rocks and syphon detritus daily to a filter sock and make two peroxide doses a day but increased amount, only Im scared to kill my cleaner shrimp

Yeah, use your judgment on peroxide amount. You are carefully observing your tank, so you have a better feel for its effect than me giving you a target number.
Can't really start metro until you are done with oxidizers and UV. They disable the metro.
I'm conflicted on vibrant and uv. They say it's fine to be used with UV, but they also say it's 95% living bacteria. I think disabling uv for a few hr to give vibrant bacteria time to colonize rock surface makes sense.

Today I came home to see a lot of brown stuff on my chaeto and I was scared to death to look at it in the microscope but for my surprise I saw a lot of brown worms moving. What can it be?

I found your brown worms in my tank too. Was shocked when I figured it out.

It's spirulina!

 

[RMS18]

Cool. How's the tank looking today, dino-wise?

Sand is cleaner than before the dosing on Friday still. Glass is much cleaner also. There are patches of clean rock also starting to expose.

I'm tossed between doing a 3 day blackout now or not. I am going to start Metro today.

 

[taricha]

I often see folks mention doing H2O2 treatments at night or in the morning, including in this thread.

From what I've read in the literature, the peak effectiveness for H2O2 treatment is achieved in bright lighting.

This seems to jive with that H2O2 treatment for dino's cited above. CO2 becomes limited and they start producing radicalized oxygen...which leads to cell death. I'm sure that us adding H2O2 to the water helps to assure this effect.

So if you're dosing H2O2 (and you're sure it's the right treatment for what you have) but not getting any results, you might need to dose during or immediately after the day's peak lighting period.

Great info
I also read same stuff. I did side by side bright light vs total darkness peroxide tests over and over on ostreopsis.
Annoyingly, I found them affected and unaffected at exactly same concentrations regardless of light. Couldn't make sense of it.
But...
In light, the peroxide reacts with cell more quickly, doing greater damage (+ light creating some amounts of reactive oxygen species in cell),
In dark, the rate of reaction with the cell is slower, the peroxide persists in water longer, likely hurts the cell's oxidation repair system that would be active in dark.
Possible that both these mechanisms are important: potency of reaction, and length of exposure.
(If thinking why not micro-dose around the clock? I found that 2ml at once was better than 4ml spread one ml at a time every couple of hours.)
I think a sensible approach is 2x a day. One light dose for potency, one dark dose for exposure time. This also fits twillards successful cyano protocol.

If a dino retreats under sand at night (evidence amphidinium does) it'll be harder to keep up oxidation stress at night than it would be for dino that goes into water at night (evidence ostreopsis does).

Do we know for sure that dinos enter the water column at lights out or do they retract into the sand?

Besides amphidinium and ostreopsis, we only know that those studied in lit move into water at night. What kind do y'all think you have and why do you think it stays locked into sand?

 

[RMS18]

Great info
I also read same stuff. I did side by side bright light vs total darkness peroxide tests over and over on ostreopsis.
Annoyingly, I found them affected and unaffected at exactly same concentrations regardless of light. Couldn't make sense of it.
But...
In light, the peroxide reacts with cell more quickly, doing greater damage (+ light creating some amounts of reactive oxygen species in cell),
In dark, the rate of reaction with the cell is slower, the peroxide persists in water longer, likely hurts the cell's oxidation repair system that would be active in dark.
Possible that both these mechanisms are important: potency of reaction, and length of exposure.
(If thinking why not micro-dose around the clock? I found that 2ml at once was better than 4ml spread one ml at a time every couple of hours.)
I think a sensible approach is 2x a day. One light dose for potency, one dark dose for exposure time. This also fits twillards successful cyano protocol.

If a dino retreats under sand at night (evidence amphidinium does) it'll be harder to keep up oxidation stress at night than it would be for dino that goes into water at night (evidence ostreopsis does).


Besides amphidinium and ostreopsis, we only know that those studied in lit move into water at night. What kind do y'all think you have and why do you think it stays locked into sand?

No idea what kind I have. They do not produce the long snotty strings. Only a carpet like look mainly on the sand and some slime on the rocks. During lights out the sand becomes white again.

 

[mandrieu]

I'm conflicted on vibrant and uv. They say it's fine to be used with UV, but they also say it's 95% living bacteria.

Agree. I read the statement, Vibrant + UV is ok... It just doesn't make sense. I would not use both at the same time. Probably the same applies to Dino-X and any bacterial additive. You probably want to even shut down the skimmer for a couple of hours

 

[taricha]

No idea what kind I have. They do not produce the long snotty strings. Only a carpet like look mainly on the sand and some slime on the rocks. During lights out the sand becomes white again.

Yep, that seems a constant. Everyone leaves the sand surface at night. Just not 100% sure who goes up, and who goes down (other than ostis and amphidinium).
People who had ostreopsis and ran carefully applied UV either said it got rid of their dinos or made their dinos "act different." upon inspection those with different looking dinos had amphidinium after UV. Reports on prorocentrum are needed.
I'll find your other posts see if you've posted pics anywhere of the dinos, especially rock "slime"

 

[RMS18]

Yep, that seems a constant. Everyone leaves the sand surface at night. Just not 100% sure who goes up, and who goes down (other than ostis and amphidinium).
People who had ostreopsis and ran carefully applied UV either said it got rid of their dinos or made their dinos "act different." upon inspection those with different looking dinos had amphidinium after UV. Reports on prorocentrum are needed.
I'll find your other posts see if you've posted pics anywhere of the dinos, especially rock "slime"

I do not have any pics of dinos under the scope. I can provide tank shots but not sure how much that would do.

 

[mandrieu]

I'm tossed between doing a 3 day blackout now or not. I am going to start Metro today.

This is an unproven theory, just a thought, but based on our collective experiences with blackouts: If you are making some kind of progress, I would not do a blackout at this point. It seems as if dinos go dormant, or form cysts, who knows, but they don't die. With blackout you may give bacteria some time to multiply and compete, but at the same time you stop all other biological processes that depend on light, algae and the like, which you also want to grow to compete for space and nutrients. So... I don't know, I think blackouts are more of a temporary pain killer because they hide the dinos, but more often than not they come back, sometimes worst.

On starting Metro: you may consider waiting a little bit. It could happen (I don't know for certain) chloride reacts with Metro, rendering it useless (or less potent)

 

[taricha]

Agree. I read the statement, Vibrant + UV is ok... It just doesn't make sense. I would not use both at the same time. Probably the same applies to Dino-X and any bacterial additive. You probably want to even shut down the skimmer for a couple of hours

In their defense, you can almost square their advice with their description of the bacterial action. they describe the bacteria blend in a way that makes it sound like they do work on the surfaces of algae, rocks and debris. If so, you can use UV without too much interference.

But still, like you say kill the skimmer/UV for a few hours to let bacteria colonize.
Also this implies blasting away debris should be done before vibrant.
Vibrant people seem pretty straightforward so hopefully their careful comments aren't pointing us in wrong direction.

Do we know anything at all about dino-x, other than it smells bad? Contents, mechanism, targets? Most reviews I've heard are bad, but a few good ones is still worth looking into.
Link appreciated.

 

[mandrieu]

No idea what kind I have. They do not produce the long snotty strings. Only a carpet like look mainly on the sand and some slime on the rocks. During lights out the sand becomes white again.

I have exactly the same

 

[RMS18]

This is an unproven theory, just a thought, but based on our collective experiences with blackouts: If you are making some kind of progress, I would not do a blackout at this point. It seems as if dinos go dormant, or form cysts, who knows, but they don't die. With blackout you may give bacteria some time to multiply and compete, but at the same time you stop all other biological processes that depend on light, algae and the like, which you also want to grow to compete for space and nutrients. So... I don't know, I think blackouts are more of a temporary pain killer because they hide the dinos, but more often than not they come back, sometimes worst.

On starting Metro: you may consider waiting a little bit. It could happen (I don't know for certain) chloride reacts with Metro, rendering it useless (or less potent)

The chlorine doesn't last long, 12 hours maybe before it breaks down. Good point on the blackouts plus I'd hate to stress my fish especially my wrasses.