Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[taricha]

Whilst you could argue we are limited to a number of them, I've seen at least twenty variations posted on threads in the last 6 months.

Here's my accounting- somebody shout out if there's microscope evidence of a dino bloom in a tank that's not one of these. and I added guesstimates numbers of cases, just for scale of occurrence.
Common ones
1. Ostreopsis: 2 indistinguishable species handled same, so count as 1. - countless #s half or a little more of all cases%
2 . Large-Cell Amphidinium - countless #s 20-30%
3 . Prorocentrum (P. Lima-like) - dozens 5-10%

Uncommon
4. Small-cell Amphidinium (A. carterae-like) - maybe a half dozen to a dozen
5. Coolia - maybe 5 cases
6. Symbiodinium-like - 2 or 3 cases
7. Gambierdiscus - 2 cases (none in a couple of years)
8. Lightning-fast rocket-powered spinny things - only 1 (Jason)

Lastly there are so few people that document there evidence, steps and results, it makes it all very intangible.

Amen.

The ones that most of the people on this said thread - active now - are battling strains that destroy your soul and stab you in the heart.

Not all. Those fighting large-cell amphidinium that's confined to the sand are actually fighting something that generally is non-toxic and causes no livestock loss. To be provocative, I would be willing to bet 10x as much livestock has been killed by treatments for Large-cell amphidinium than by the dino itself.
And it might be the hardest to kill by aggressive methods (but maybe the easiest to find things that eat it).
[/QUOTE]

O. ovata.. respond fastest when I completely cut ... iron. ...stop nori, 2 part...trace elements. Just pure calcium chloride and sodium carbonate solutions.... no trace vitamins/supplements ....
They definitely are still in the system, just getting out competed for space by organisms that favor the conditions more.

All 100% Thumbs up. I do same. Add acro-power to the list. At the moment it's dino - crack in my (and many other's) systems.
heard several others also back up the nori account. I had someone who had nori cause such intense outbreaks that he sent me samples to prove the dried seaweed was loaded with millions of dino cysts. Of course it was totally clean.

Wonder why the nori triggers more a response. Odd.

The seaweeds we feed herbivores are packed with Iron, other trace metals, vitamins, amino acids (hmmm.... acro-power) etc, etc. Check this abstract for details.

You're very helpful you know that....don't you.

gracias.

Yes it will. I dose iron.....and have very few dinoflagellates.

Right. Because an Iron limitation is not the only way to keep dinos in check.
The Iron thing is not super clear cut. There are tanks where an Iron limitation seems to have clearly halted the dino growth and let other things take over, other systems Iron is available, and it was another trace element, others where it may have been a vitamin. Other systems or systems in transition - element limitations aren't the governing factor. Yeah, I've read RHF's article, and that paper you cited. It's good. (how applicable is a HighNutrientLowChloryphyll - HNLC area of cold ocean to our systems? I dunno) and the story in our tanks is complicated - so many cases of adding a little bit of something and dino population explodes - there's definitely an element limitation bottleneck that keeps a dino bloom at certain level in many people's systems. But tracking down which element it is exactly, is complicated.
But If I keep pure N & P (Ca & Alk & Mag ) dosed and elevated while not adding any trace elements except what little comes in on frozen whole food (no flake or fish bones), while rocking a big macroalgae population (many 1000s of times the mass of the dinos), the dinos growth will slow, and often halt and reverse. If I dose some trace elements/vitamins while the dinos are receding- the dinos make a comeback. That's as close to proof as I can get. In my system, and in some others too. All systems? dunno.
And we're talking about element levels way below what Triton test will find. Like I said. Complicated. I've done beaker tests on this for so long. So hard to pin down.

 

[Paullawr]

Here's my accounting- somebody shout out if there's microscope evidence of a dino bloom in a tank that's not one of these. and I added guesstimates numbers of cases, just for scale of occurrence.
Common ones
1. Ostreopsis: 2 indistinguishable species handled same, so count as 1. - countless #s half or a little more of all cases%
2 . Large-Cell Amphidinium - countless #s 20-30%
3 . Prorocentrum (P. Lima-like) - dozens 5-10%

Uncommon
4. Small-cell Amphidinium (A. carterae-like) - maybe a half dozen to a dozen
5. Coolia - maybe 5 cases
6. Symbiodinium-like - 2 or 3 cases
7. Gambierdiscus - 2 cases (none in a couple of years)
8. Lightning-fast rocket-powered spinny things - only 1 (Jason)



Amen.


Not all. Those fighting large-cell amphidinium that's confined to the sand are actually fighting something that generally is non-toxic and causes no livestock loss. To be provocative, I would be willing to bet 10x as much livestock has been killed by treatments for Large-cell amphidinium than by the dino itself.
And it might be the hardest to kill by aggressive methods (but maybe the easiest to find things that eat it).

All 100% Thumbs up. I do same. Add acro-power to the list. At the moment it's dino - crack in my (and many other's) systems.
heard several others also back up the nori account. I had someone who had nori cause such intense outbreaks that he sent me samples to prove the dried seaweed was loaded with millions of dino cysts. Of course it was totally clean.


The seaweeds we feed herbivores are packed with Iron, other trace metals, vitamins, amino acids (hmmm.... acro-power) etc, etc. Check this abstract for details.


gracias.


Right. Because an Iron limitation is not the only way to keep dinos in check.
The Iron thing is not super clear cut. There are tanks where an Iron limitation seems to have clearly halted the dino growth and let other things take over, other systems Iron is available, and it was another trace element, others where it may have been a vitamin. Other systems or systems in transition - element limitations aren't the governing factor. Yeah, I've read RHF's article, and that paper you cited. It's good. (how applicable is a HighNutrientLowChloryphyll - HNLC area of cold ocean to our systems? I dunno) and the story in our tanks is complicated - so many cases of adding a little bit of something and dino population explodes - there's definitely an element limitation bottleneck that keeps a dino bloom at certain level in many people's systems. But tracking down which element it is exactly, is complicated.
But If I keep pure N & P (Ca & Alk & Mag ) dosed and elevated while not adding any trace elements except what little comes in on frozen whole food (no flake or fish bones), while rocking a big macroalgae population (many 1000s of times the mass of the dinos), the dinos growth will slow, and often halt and reverse. If I dose some trace elements/vitamins while the dinos are receding- the dinos make a comeback. That's as close to proof as I can get. In my system, and in some others too. All systems? dunno.
And we're talking about element levels way below what Triton test will find. Like I said. Complicated. I've done beaker tests on this for so long. So hard to pin down.[/QUOTE]
So

You ain't sure then.

 

[Paullawr]

I think the fact of the matter is:

If you try to defeat dinoflagellates by controlling nutrients ON A SYSTEM BY SYSTEM BASIS

You won't succeed but simply keep them in check.

At the slightest change to controlled regime they germinate.
So will always be in said tank and most likely move to another tank with you or anyone elses that you sell, swap, trade with. Thus so the cycle continues.

Remind me once again why we are not actively looking for a ingredient that will stop these pests once and for all and ultimately put an end to an overly long thread?

I await the screams of....

Oh my filter bacteria...

What about the said xxxxpod living in some sponge..

Sod all that. That can be sorted in a fortnight...less.

I'd rather the stuff hasn't killed at least £500 with of corals in the space of 8 years.

 

[errolflin]

Hi friends

just a brief repport

After 20 days using the "environmental approach", adding KNO3 and phosphoric acid, still dino free.

Nitrate is over 50 ppm and P is 0,06 ppb. No adding more and waiting they will go down slowly with the algae.

It seems it works for me

 

[taricha]

So

You ain't sure then.

In tanks where water changes, or trace element dosing causes population explosion, I'm sure there's an element/nutrient limitation governing the dino population.
Which element? I dunno. Iron looks guilty in many tanks.
Same element in every case? Absolutely sure it's not.

 

[taricha]

Remind me once again why we are not actively looking for a ingredient that will stop these pests once and for all and ultimately put an end to an overly long thread?

Because, no chemical will kill 100% of wolves, coyotes, foxes, hyenas, dingos, jackals etc and leave your pet dog Fido alive.
Same for dinos and coral symbiont.

But if you wanna play with fire, and just kill things, I suspect you could get some interesting results running a significantly higher concentration of bleach, then follow it a couple of minutes later with a calculated dose of sodium thiosulfate as a chaser to dechlorinate.
It might kill all the free living dinos exposed, but be neutralized before the hosted dinos in our coral get too much.

But that all sounds like insanity to me.

 

[errolflin]

In tanks where water changes, or trace element dosing causes population explosion, I'm sure there's an element/nutrient limitation governing the dino population.
Which element? I dunno. Iron looks guilty in many tanks.
Same element in every case? Absolutely sure it's not.

Liebigs law of the minimum and the Law of limiting factors

If you increase the level of a limiting factor (iron, vitamin X, K, ...) that is at minimum value, the population will grow till a new factor will be the limitating one.

In one aquarium may be iron, but in other one can be vit B12, K, alk, etc

 

[Paullawr]

Liebigs law of the minimum and the Law of limiting factors

If you increase the level of a limiting factor (iron, vitamin X, K, ...) that is at minimum value, the population will grow till a new factor will be the limitating one.

In one aquarium may be iron, but in other one can be vit B12, K, alk, etc

So what happens when the population reaches the limiting factor? Status quo?

My concern is that we are trying to form an equilibrium with a species that doesn't want to play fair.

Is this not more insane than looking at a solution.

Again, I'm clearly on the wrong page. Sorry all.

 

[taricha]

Liebigs law of the minimum and the Law of limiting factors

If you increase the level of a limiting factor (iron, vitamin X, K, ...) that is at minimum value, the population will grow till a new factor will be the limitating one.

In one aquarium may be iron, but in other one can be vit B12, K, alk, etc

Precisely. It has a name, apparently! And to circle the idea back around....
We push P (&N) low to make it limiting factor for green algae, but we all know dinos exploit that condition really well. They are great at capturing small amounts of P.
So shift the contest, make P (&N) not scarce, and force a different competition for a different limiting factor that dinos aren't so good at.

 

[mandrieu]

I miss the sand but my dinos love it and it looked horrible before I got it out but I dream one day can add it once again and it will stay white.

Me too. I hate the way the tank looks without the sand. But I have to beat the dinos first, otherwise there will be no sand or tank to worry about for that matter

 

[Vaughn17]

Precisely. It has a name, apparently! And to circle the idea back around....
We push P (&N) low to make it limiting factor for green algae, but we all know dinos exploit that condition really well. They are great at capturing small amounts of P.
So shift the contest, make P (&N) not scarce, and force a different competition for a different limiting factor that dinos aren't so good at.

That's how I've eliminated dinos in three different tanks--dose NO3 and PO4. Within a few days no more dinos and happy corals.

 

[Jolanta]

That's how I've eliminated dinos in three different tanks--dose NO3 and PO4. Within a few days no more dinos and happy corals.

What kind of dinos you had?

 

[mandrieu]

Remind me once again why we are not actively looking for a ingredient that will stop these pests once and for all and ultimately put an end to an overly long thread?

Of course we could just get lucky and find something that works, but to find a "remedy" for this is a complicated and expensive enterprise, way beyond our possibilities as hobbyists. I'm talking about drug research kind of stuff. But I can't accept is not possible

 

[mcarroll]

O. ovata seems to respond fastest when I completely cut any items that might introduce iron into the tank.

All I can say is that Fe is heavily involved with nitrogen fixation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogenase

I'm sure that could be responsible for the effect in at least some cases. (I'd bet there are other important uses for Fe too though.)

Removing nori at the danger of starving your tang? I think that wouldn't be wise. They are already likely stressed.

Agreed. If you can literally see the blooms respond to the noori, then maybe. But that seems highly exceptional. FEED YOUR TANGS.

And for the love of baby Moses in a basket - they are not algae or diatoms or bacteria....

However true that is (dang protists!!!), they are able to put on like they were an autotrophic green algae under "normal" circumstances....and that's what we'd like them to resume doing. Now if not sooner.

In one study, the researchers added iron to a variety of ocean environments and tracked the population change in various organisms.5 What they found is very interesting. The primary organisms that increased relative to the others were diatoms. The also found that cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates declined, and bacteria remained largely unchanged.

Good find!!

Yes it will. I dose iron.....and have very few dinoflagellates.

Very interesting! I forget what N and P levels you're keeping.....are you also testing for Fe levels or just doing a prescribed dose?

My Dino's love rock. They don't go on the sand. But then they won't go on corals either. They grow around them. Then next day gone. Very weird.

Makes me think they're following the diurnal CO2 cycle or something like that. What parameters (if any) are in some way "borderline" on your system?

Precisely. It has a name, apparently! And to circle the idea back around....
We push P (&N) low to make it limiting factor for green algae, but we all know dinos exploit that condition really well. They are great at capturing small amounts of P.
So shift the contest, make P (&N) not scarce, and force a different competition for a different limiting factor that dinos aren't so good at.

Well said once again!

 

[Vaughn17]

What kind of dinos you had?

The brown, snotty kind that are epiphytic and a slimy benthic type. Sorry, guess I need to get a scope.

 

[taricha]

All I can say is that Fe is heavily involved with nitrogen fixation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogenase

I'm sure that could be responsible for the effect in at least some cases. (I'd bet there are other important uses for Fe too though.)

The photosynthetic apparatus is very iron demanding.

 

[errolflin]

So what happens when the population reaches the limiting factor? Status quo?

My concern is that we are trying to form an equilibrium with a species that doesn't want to play fair.

Is this not more insane than looking at a solution.

Again, I'm clearly on the wrong page. Sorry all.

When there is a limiting element, there can only be species that are able to thrive with those limiting levels.

Let's say nitrogen below 0.5 mg/l is the limiting factor for HG algae growth. If our system is there, the algae will not grow. If for dinos it is 0,25 mg/l the dinos will continue to grow without competition from HGA.

If you raise the nitrogen level above 0.5, the algae will begin to grow again and compete for nutrients with the dinos.

At this time it may be that due to competition the iron level falls below 0.01 mg/l and that the dinos can not grow in that environment. This will now be the limiting element for its growth. If you add iron, the dinos will grow back.

The limiting elements change as populations of an ecosystem change.

It is a balance game of nutrients.

Dinos have proven to be able to thrive superior to other inhabitants of our aquariums, but our ability to handle the system is what should make us win the battle.

 

[Jolanta]

It seems dinos love my new scrubber and only grow on the plastic, there is no visible dinos in the tank, only some ciano. Today I rinsed the scrubber with tap water to take out the dinos and there is some green showing up [emoji1]

The good thing is when I rinse it, only dinos fall out, the green algae stays on the plastic.

 

[mcarroll]

and there is some green showing up

Did I just see you smile about your tank?

 

[mcarroll]

The good thing is when I rinse it, only dinos fall out, the green algae stays on the plastic.

See! Dino's have weaknesses too!!