Disaster

[JJHLH]

I bought a bonded pair of beautiful DaVinci clownfish from my LFS 36 hours ago, and now they are both gone. I feel terrible and hate myself.

I‘m not sure what I did wrong.

My tank finished cycling. I followed the instructions and did a 25% water change and acclimated the fish slowly over a 2 hour period before adding them to the tank. They seemed to be fine for the first 24 hours. I then fed them a very small amount of frozen brine shrimp, as recommended by the LFS. The female ate a little bit, but the smaller male didn’t eat anything that I could see. That worried me, but they both still seemed to be swimming fine so I thought maybe they were still getting used to the tank. I made a video of them.

I then took a 30 minute nap and when I woke up the small male was pinned against the filter intake on the back upper left of the tank. I turned off the pump to free it and it slowly sank to the bottom, twitching occasionally. It remained there on the bottom, breathing heavily. The female came over and gently nudged it trying to get it to move, which it did. It swam to the surface a few times and looked like it was gulping air, but then quickly sank back to the bottom. This repeated itself a couple more times and then it was over. I had to bury this poor fish.

The larger female seemed to be swimming normally. I did a 50% water change as a precaution, making sure the temperature and salinity were the same. I checked on it repeatedly over the next 7 hours before going to bed and it looked OK. I woke up at 3 a.m. to check on her and found her lying on the bottom of the tank breathing heavily. The same series of events occurred and soon she was gone as well.

I tested the water parameters immediately after seeing her in trouble and got the following results:

Temp 77
Salinity 34.6
pH 8.1
Ammonia 0
Nitrates 11.9

I feel horrible. I expected this to be difficult but didn’t foresee losing two beautiful fish so quickly due to my incompetence.

What did I do wrong? I had my return pump and Nero 3 both on. Was that too much flow? I had a sheet of glass lying on my net cover. It wasn‘t an airtight fit but did that impede oxygenation of the water? I had the return pump nozzle turned such that there was a lot of surface agitation, which I thought would help that.

I hate myself right now. This is very sad

 

[i cant think]

I bought a bonded pair of beautiful DaVinci clownfish from my LFS 36 hours ago, and now they are both gone. I feel terrible and hate myself.

I‘m not sure what I did wrong.

My tank finished cycling. I followed the instructions and did a 25% water change and acclimated the fish slowly over a 2 hour period before adding them to the tank. They seemed to be fine for the first 24 hours. I then fed them a very small amount of frozen brine shrimp, as recommended by the LFS. The female ate a little bit, but the smaller male didn’t eat anything that I could see. That worried me, but they both still seemed to be swimming fine so I thought maybe they were still getting used to the tank. I made a video of them.

I then took a 30 minute nap and when I woke up the small male was pinned against the filter intake on the back upper left of the tank. I turned off the pump to free it and it slowly sank to the bottom, twitching occasionally. It remained there on the bottom, breathing heavily. The female came over and gently nudged it trying to get it to move, which it did. It swam to the surface a few times and looked like it was gulping air, but then quickly sank back to the bottom. This repeated itself a couple more times and then it was over. I had to bury this poor fish.

The larger female seemed to be swimming normally. I did a 50% water change as a precaution, making sure the temperature and salinity were the same. I checked on it repeatedly over the next 7 hours before going to bed and it looked OK. I woke up at 3 a.m. to check on her and found her lying on the bottom of the tank breathing heavily. The same series of events occurred and soon she was gone as well.

I tested the water parameters immediately after seeing her in trouble and got the following results:

Temp 77
Salinity 34.6
pH 8.1
Ammonia 0
Nitratres 11.9

I feel horrible. I expected this to be difficult but didn’t foresee losing two beautiful fish so quickly due to my incompetence.

What did I do wrong? I had my return pump and Nero 3 both on. Was that too much flow? I had a sheet of glass lying on my net cover. It wasn‘t an airtight fit but did that impede oxygenation of the water? I had the return pump nozzle turned such that there was a lot of surface agitation, which I thought would help that.

I hate myself right now. This is very sad

So.. to me, the male died because of it being stuck on the filter intake for too long (Maybe flow being fast and not used to it yet), the female I can’t see why she would have died. I’d leave it a week and keep testing for spikes every day at the same time if possible.

 

[Clarkjw2002]

Sounds like classic ammonia poisoning or salinity shock. Ammonia is usually from too long in the bag acclimating. Ammonia build up in the bag burns gill cells and it is downhill from there, Symptoms often present a day or so after introduction w/ death shortly after. Most common is shipped fish though where they've been bagged for a day or two.

For salinity, most fish stores run really low--like 20-30 ppt. Fish can handle a sudden drop in salinity okay but a sudden rise is deadly. They can really only handle a jump of 2ppt per day or so. Going from fish store salinity to your tank's salinity would have required several days of slowly raising the salinity (I do this by evaporation). Fish stores never tell you this when they discuss acclimation. Always ask the salinity and, better yet, test yourself.

Another good reason for a quarantine tank/container. Allows you to match salinity and then raise over time slowly. Much less stress on the fish to match salinities and release immediately.

Sorry for your loss. They looked like fine fish.

 

[i cant think]

Sounds like classic ammonia poisoning or salinity shock. Ammonia is usually from too long in the bag acclimating. Ammonia build up in the bag burns gill cells and it is downhill from there, Symptoms often present a day or so after introduction w/ death shortly after. Most common is shipped fish though where they've been bagged for a day or two.

For salinity, most fish stores run really low--like 20-30 ppt. Fish can handle a sudden drop in salinity okay but a sudden rise is deadly. They can really only handle a jump of 2ppt per day or so. Going from fish store salinity to your tank's salinity would have required several days of slowly raising the salinity (I do this by evaporation). Fish stores never tell you this when they discuss acclimation. Always ask the salinity and, better yet, test yourself.

Another good reason for a quarantine tank/container. Allows you to match salinity and then raise over time slowly. Much less stress on the fish to match salinities and release immediately.

Sorry for your loss. They looked like fine fish.

This is more likely, usually 2 hours of acclimation is bad for fish because ammonia spikes quickly. Next time try just a temperature acclimation and do that for 30 minutes with fish. Coral needs 30 minutes but drip imo

 

[JJHLH]

Sounds like classic ammonia poisoning or salinity shock. Ammonia is usually from too long in the bag acclimating. Ammonia build up in the bag burns gill cells and it is downhill from there, Symptoms often present a day or so after introduction w/ death shortly after. Most common is shipped fish though where they've been bagged for a day or two.

For salinity, most fish stores run really low--like 20-30 ppt. Fish can handle a sudden drop in salinity okay but a sudden rise is deadly. They can really only handle a jump of 2ppt per day or so. Going from fish store salinity to your tank's salinity would have required several days of slowly raising the salinity (I do this by evaporation). Fish stores never tell you this when they discuss acclimation. Always ask the salinity and, better yet, test yourself.

Another good reason for a quarantine tank/container. Allows you to match salinity and then raise over time slowly. Much less stress on the fish to match salinities and release immediately.

Sorry for your loss. They looked like fine fish.

My local fish store is 50 minutes away. I brought them straight home. I kept them in the bag while I did the drip method of adding water from the tank to the bag slowly over two hours to acclimate them to their new home.

I tested the salinity of the water in the bag before I started the drip. It was 31.5. You are probably right. It was quite a bit lower than my tank‘s which was 35 when I put them in.

I could have easily taken some water out of my tank and replaced it with RODI to lower the salinity if I had know this was going to be such a problem. I watched several YouTube videos on acclimating the fish and even asked the guy at the LFS, trying to do the right thing. My ignorance did them in.

They were beautiful fish and didn’t deserve this to be their fate.

 

[JJHLH]

This is more likely, usually 2 hours of acclimation is bad for fish because ammonia spikes quickly. Next time try just a temperature acclimation and do that for 30 minutes with fish. Coral needs 30 minutes but drip imo

Should I have put them in the tank sooner? The LFS guy said 20 minutes. I waited longer because I noticed the difference in salinity. There was also a temperature difference. The bag was around 73 and my tank is 77. I had my home AC off so the room temp was the same as my tank, which I thought might help in the acclimation.

 

[Glenner’sreef]

Curious, In what looks like a new set up and you’ve just finished cycling, how are your nitrates above 10 already? Maybe you bought the tank used and it came with the previous owners used (dirty, or toxic, contaminated) gravel? Thinking outside the box as you made a very routine purchase, acclimation and introduction to your tank. It just may very well not have been you who caused this.

 

[i cant think]

Should I have put them in the tank sooner? The LFS guy said 20 minutes. I waited longer because I noticed the difference in salinity. There was also a temperature difference. The bag was around 73 and my tank is 77. I had my home AC off so the room temp was the same as my tank, which I thought might help in the acclimation.

To me, 30 minutes is better, but also salinity at 1.033 is high for what I assume will become a reef tank, usually 1.030 is max for reef tanks whereas 1.025 is better

 

[JJHLH]

Curious, In what looks like a new set up and you’ve just finished cycling, how are your nitrates above 10 already? Maybe you bought the tank used and it came with the previous owners used (dirty, or toxic, contaminated) gravel? Thinking outside the box as you made a very routine purchase, acclimation and introduction to your tank. It just may very well not have been you who caused this.

I’m not sure about the nitrates. Everything is brand new, including the sand. Nothing is used.

I cycled my tank with Microbacter QuickCycle and Microbacter StartXLM. I read the directions on the Brightwell website and followed them exactly. The only thing I didn’t test for was nitrites but I’ve read elsewhere that isn’t necessary.

I tested the water routinely at 11:30 every morning and logged the results using the Google Sheets app. I added the QuickCycle and StartXLM on 09/26/21. I also used Brightwell BioCubes and let them soak with a capful of the StartXLM overnight as the directions indicated. I did that on 09/25/21.

I added the fish on 10/08/21. That is when I performed the first water change of 25% as the directions told me to do before the fish went in.

Were the nitrates too high? Should I have waited until they came down below 10?

These are the directions I followed. They didn’t mention a number for the nitrates being too high that I can see.

Brightwell Aquatics - MicroBacter QuikCycl

brightwellaquatics.com

I‘m so confused as to what happened.

 

[JJHLH]

To me, 30 minutes is better, but also salinity at 1.033 is high for what I assume will become a reef tank, usually 1.030 is max for reef tanks whereas 1.025 is better

I‘ve been logging my salinity in parts per thousand instead of specific gravity, trying to keep it as close to 35 ppt like natural seawater as possible.

I calibrated my Hanna tester twice using their packets of 35 ppt water to make sure everything was as accurate as I could make it.

Could the high flow with the pump and Nero 3 both on have worn them out swimming against the current?

 

[ScottB]

Sorry you had to go through this. I'd place more fault on the LFS instruction than yourself.

I doubt it was ammonia in the bag; it take much longer to build up than an hour or so. I am guessing some combo of temp and salinity shock. Given your nitrate level, I have to assume your nitrites are not a problem, but worth a test.

I don't believe flow is a problem either. I have these fish in super high frag system flow and they do fine.

I drip shipped fish for 2-4 hours depending on the salinity difference. A couple drops of Amquel to neutralize the ammonia upon opening the bag. I clamp the bag to the INSIDE of the sump to keep the temp level. Slow drip. Set an alarm to remove some water from the bag each hour and check salinity.

 

[Tim McLellan]

Don't beat yourself up too much, sounds like you were pretty much on top of things and trying to do everything right. I've followed a similar process for all my first fish these past few months and haven't had anything like that happen. I usually spend 1-2 hours acclimating and my nitrates have been higher than yours. I still don't have enough experience (5 months) to have any insight on what went wrong with your situation, but that's a real bummer.

 

[brandon429]

Scott I like your assessment best due to the locus of ammonia issues you highlighted, the bag not the tank. these bottle bac work great across the board, I never thought for one second the tank killed the fish but I wasn't sure how they'd both die so quickly as well.

see how on day ten of the logs the ammonia started to drop, well that's a drop on a non seneye non digital kit meaning the real drop happened 5 days earlier, because selling concentrated bottle bac in water to be added to water soon after is easy and works great. the aquarium didn't kill the fish I'm sure. when a tank isn't cycled and can't control ammonia it by rule goes cloudy with the feed and fish added, this was a very very low bioload very high surface area system that remained clear.

 

[moz71]

Yea nothing to do with flow. Nor nitrates. Curious what test kit testing ammonia with?

 

[Glenner’sreef]

I’m not sure about the nitrates. Everything is brand new, including the sand. Nothing is used.

I cycled my tank with Microbacter QuickCycle and Microbacter StartXLM. I read the directions on the Brightwell website and followed them exactly. The only thing I didn’t test for was nitrites but I’ve read elsewhere that isn’t necessary.

I tested the water routinely at 11:30 every morning and logged the results using the Google Sheets app. I added the QuickCycle and StartXLM on 09/26/21. I also used Brightwell BioCubes and let them soak with a capful of the StartXLM overnight as the directions indicated. I did that on 09/25/21.

I added the fish on 10/08/21. That is when I performed the first water change of 25% as the directions told me to do before the fish went in.

Were the nitrates too high? Should I have waited until they came down below 10?

These are the directions I followed. They didn’t mention a number for the nitrates being too high that I can see.

Brightwell Aquatics - MicroBacter QuikCycl

brightwellaquatics.com

I‘m so confused as to what happened.

Thanks for all of this information it really helps. So two things: I’m not saying that nitrates of 10-11 is a bad thing, it’s not. I’m just curious how they got there in a sterile tank. Secondly, the day you introduced your fish into the tank your your nitrates more than doubled to 23.4 Now I’m really curious!!!
I helped a person about 4 months ago determine the deaths of (coincidentally 2 clowns) the only fish in their 20g cube. After asking every possible question and every angle. I asked her if she had the room sprayed for bugs? Do you have a maid who may have sprayed a chemical, something toxic in the air, on the open tank water? She thought for a moment and said. We had the carpets cleaned in this room the day before the fish died. And after the carpets were cleaned aerosol freshener was sprayed to take away more smell. (Dog crapped on carpet). I told her that her protein skimmer takes in so much air that if she were to run a 1/4” air hose from the skimmer to just outside the window it would increase the Ph from 7.8 to 8.2 overnight. Heartbreaking as she had her clowns for 7 years. Point being: look around see if there is anything out of the ordinary. Stray voltage? Smell your fish food, make sure it’s fresh. Check your test kits. API test kits are not all that great. Have a friend test your water. It’s all “cause and effect” good luck bud.

 

[brandon429]

JJHLH you added the fish at the exact right time, you should feel great honestly. nice logs.

nitrate cannot burn them, nor can nitrite. ammonia was controlled, rule out the tank, seek externally for the cause of loss and since we can't even pinpoint it here you're absolved of all wrong and your lfs stood no chance of helpful input at all lol.

 

[brandon429]

however


they brought in disease to the tank which affects new entrants, do quarantine and fallow now per the fish disease forum.
it doesnt matter if they were asymptomatic they still vectored in disease we can read it in the fish disease forum


if that wasn't the case, the forum would be slow v fast each day with new loss posts.

the secret to today's cycling is its not about filtration establishment, the bottles do that quickly. its about disease preps, see the fish disease forum for what happens in 5-8 mos if u skip fallow and qt.

 

[Kobadinsky]

I bought a bonded pair of beautiful DaVinci clownfish from my LFS 36 hours ago, and now they are both gone. I feel terrible and hate myself.

I‘m not sure what I did wrong.

My tank finished cycling. I followed the instructions and did a 25% water change and acclimated the fish slowly over a 2 hour period before adding them to the tank. They seemed to be fine for the first 24 hours. I then fed them a very small amount of frozen brine shrimp, as recommended by the LFS. The female ate a little bit, but the smaller male didn’t eat anything that I could see. That worried me, but they both still seemed to be swimming fine so I thought maybe they were still getting used to the tank. I made a video of them.

I then took a 30 minute nap and when I woke up the small male was pinned against the filter intake on the back upper left of the tank. I turned off the pump to free it and it slowly sank to the bottom, twitching occasionally. It remained there on the bottom, breathing heavily. The female came over and gently nudged it trying to get it to move, which it did. It swam to the surface a few times and looked like it was gulping air, but then quickly sank back to the bottom. This repeated itself a couple more times and then it was over. I had to bury this poor fish.

The larger female seemed to be swimming normally. I did a 50% water change as a precaution, making sure the temperature and salinity were the same. I checked on it repeatedly over the next 7 hours before going to bed and it looked OK. I woke up at 3 a.m. to check on her and found her lying on the bottom of the tank breathing heavily. The same series of events occurred and soon she was gone as well.

I tested the water parameters immediately after seeing her in trouble and got the following results:

Temp 77
Salinity 34.6
pH 8.1
Ammonia 0
Nitrates 11.9

I feel horrible. I expected this to be difficult but didn’t foresee losing two beautiful fish so quickly due to my incompetence.

What did I do wrong? I had my return pump and Nero 3 both on. Was that too much flow? I had a sheet of glass lying on my net cover. It wasn‘t an airtight fit but did that impede oxygenation of the water? I had the return pump nozzle turned such that there was a lot of surface agitation, which I thought would help that.

I hate myself right now. This is very sad

I’m sorry that this happened to you, my thought is the acclimation time was too long. Our LFS told us to float acclimate for no more than 10 minutes and to drip acclimate for no more than 25 minutes. I was able to find their video about what they do and hopefully you do have any more issues. They also have a ton of other videos. They are so knowledgeable and have helped us so much with our reef tank. Good luck, don’t give up on the hobby we all have our fish losses!

 

[davidcalgary29]

Sorry you had to go through this. I'd place more fault on the LFS instruction than yourself.

I doubt it was ammonia in the bag; it take much longer to build up than an hour or so. I am guessing some combo of temp and salinity shock. Given your nitrate level, I have to assume your nitrites are not a problem, but worth a test.

I don't believe flow is a problem either. I have these fish in super high frag system flow and they do fine.

I drip shipped fish for 2-4 hours depending on the salinity difference. A couple drops of Amquel to neutralize the ammonia upon opening the bag. I clamp the bag to the INSIDE of the sump to keep the temp level. Slow drip. Set an alarm to remove some water from the bag each hour and check salinity.

I've bought many fish from vendors in Ontario, and it takes three days for them to get here. All but one arrived alive.

I should acclimate my fish more than I do, but they're all essentially through a hydrogen peroxide dip and into a methylene blue quarantine very quickly, though.

 

[JJHLH]

Yea nothing to do with flow. Nor nitrates. Curious what test kit testing ammonia with?

I used the Red Sea kit to test for ammonia.

The other tests were digital using Hanna checkers.