Disaster

[brandon429]

thats good input for me to learn from. I dont keep marine fish/just corals so its never been something to encounter, for sure will recommend acclimation procedures seen here to new cyclers so we keep up the safe trending as best as possible

I honestly thought the fish were tougher than that/to be stressed from the acclimation differences but it seems to be a resounding theme here by those that do keep fish.

 

[JJHLH]

Don’t see much wrong with her advice, except perhaps missing the dip, quarantine bit. Going by this vid, I don’t really understand the 2 hr acclimation, unless your tank pH was really low, like 7.6ish.

At 3:10 in the video she says if the parameters in the bag are close to the tank’s parameters, “You only really need to do a quick acclimation. You can probably get away with a half an hour to an hour.” In my case the parameters were different which is why I did it over 2 hours. She also says at 5:41, “You want to go slowly. Slow and steady wins the race.”

She emphasized the need to go slow particularly when going from a lower salinity to a higher salinity. In my case that was from 31.5 ppt in the bag to 35 ppt in the tank.

I wish I hadn’t followed her advice.

 

[brandon429]

just as a quick brainstorm can you think of anything in the chain of water that could contaminate? that one fellow really did have a normal looking tank, and his clowns would die quickly when put in after swimming erratically, and his sump/ not pictured was built in mold prevention silicone, can you think of anything like that possible

 

[JJHLH]

Do you calibrate your chosen method of reading salinity? Are you sure the water isn’t too warm /cold?

Yes. I have the Hanna digital salinity checker. I actually calibrated it twice using the 35 ppt sealed water calibration packets they provide.

The water temp in my tank is set to 77 degrees and I confirmed that separately with the probe on my new heater, the Hanna salinity checker which also records temperature as apparently salinity can vary based on temperature, as well as another temperature pen that I have.

The temperature in the bag was 73 degrees when I started the acclimation.

 

[JJHLH]

I still no believe that what you did 24 hour before the problem cause the same pattern of illness in two fish 30 minutes after you feeding them for the first time. My experiences says that when something happens suddenly and with the same pattern for more than one fish - you should look at incidents happens just before the event - at least in 98 % of these cases - the explanation is found just before the event itself.

Sincerely Lasse

That is very true. Everything was going fine until I fed the fish. Everything went downhill almost immediately after that.

Here is a video of the fish just minutes before I fed them. This is almost 24 hours after they were put in the tank. They look happy and healthy. I never would have expected what was about to happen to them.

Davinci Clownfish 10/09/21 before feeding.

youtube.com

 

[JJHLH]

just as a quick brainstorm can you think of anything in the chain of water that could contaminate? that one fellow really did have a normal looking tank, and his clowns would die quickly when put in after swimming erratically, and his sump/ not pictured was built in mold prevention silicone, can you think of anything like that possible

I really can’t t think of anything. I used RODI water that measured 0 TDS. I made saltwater using AccuraSea 1 and followed their directions. I don’t smoke, use Windex, or other harsh chemicals or insecticides.

I forgot to mention that I clean the glass of the tank using Care Panes but this is recommended by Bulk Reef Supply and should be safe. I spray it onto a microfiber cloth and not onto the glass itself.

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My tank is a brand new Nuvo 10 so the silicone was already installed when I got it. It’s a small AIO. I’m also using a Nero 3, a MightyJet return pump, and a Helio heater. These are all items recommended for this tank on the Innovative Marine website, and are all brand new.

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[Dom]

I've always felt it was important to test the contents of the bag before starting any acclamation. I'm particularly interested in salinity and pH. If there is a big discrepancy between the bag water and the tank water, it could lead to a host of issues.

 

[brandon429]

I think Lasse's assessment on feeding can't be immediately discounted but try and imagine your system not processing a tiny bit of indirect ammonia, mostly eaten you didn't let it fall to the floor and rot there, and it just oxidized a much larger direct amount the week before a feed event.

that also supports the counter claim decently, and you didn't get a clouding crash.

if feed was given to the tank that rotted and went uneaten, maybe so then.

 

[brandon429]

Fish dying within hours.

I must be missing something. My Red Sea 130 AIO has been setup as a mixed reef and running for about 10 months now. Initially had velvet with some fish and went fallow for 3 months. Newly introduced fish were quarantined and treated with copper. New fish did well for months in the DT and then...

www.reef2reef.com

those symptoms, from the disease forum, are also not terribly unmatched to what you saw here. proposing legit alternates that do come from logged patterns, not outlier events.

 

[JJHLH]

Fish dying within hours.

I must be missing something. My Red Sea 130 AIO has been setup as a mixed reef and running for about 10 months now. Initially had velvet with some fish and went fallow for 3 months. Newly introduced fish were quarantined and treated with copper. New fish did well for months in the DT and then...

www.reef2reef.com

those symptoms, from the disease forum, are also not terribly unmatched to what you saw here. proposing legit alternates that do come from logged patterns, not outlier events.

After reading this it makes me wonder if poor oxygenation might have been part of the problem. This has also been mention before in this thread by others. The surface of my tank wasn’t agitated very much to begin with, although I changed that after the first fish perished. There was also a thin piece of glass over the netting of my lid, which may have impeded gas exchange to a harmful degree, although there was a 1/16 inch gap at the edges so it wasn’t airtight.

I also turned off the powerhead and return pump when I fed the fish. When I turned the return pump back on a lot of tiny bubble were generated for a minute or so in the tank. A poster in the thread you linked mentioned that microbubbles can harm or at the least, irritate fish.

 

[Lasse]

I forgot to mention that I clean the glass of the tank using Care Panes but this is recommended by Bulk Reef Supply and should be safe. I spray it onto a microfiber cloth and not onto the glass itself.

A tip - that you may not believe in - but the best glass cleaner is RO water and a window scraper.

No one of us can know what caused your fish death but nether the less - there is some reasons - maybe a combination of reasons - but I have difficulties to believe that a fish that swim i a way like yours - 60 minutes later is so weak that it will be suck into the inlet of one of your streamers by an infectious disease,

A poster in the thread you linked mentioned that microbubbles can harm or at the least, irritate fish.

Yes but not that fast and not to death during such short time. It is not all microbubbles that is dangerous either.

Low oxygen saturation may have been a contributing factor but why did it start 30 minutes (or sooner - you took a nap) after feeding?

We have also this post - read the picture

Disaster

Sounds like classic ammonia poisoning or salinity shock. Ammonia is usually from too long in the bag acclimating. Ammonia build up in the bag burns gill cells and it is downhill from there, Symptoms often present a day or so after introduction w/ death shortly after. Most common is shipped...

www.reef2reef.com

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

thats good input for me to learn from. I dont keep marine fish/just corals so its never been something to encounter, for sure will recommend acclimation procedures seen here to new cyclers so we keep up the safe trending as best as possible

I honestly thought the fish were tougher than that/to be stressed from the acclimation differences but it seems to be a resounding theme here by those that do keep fish.

My bold - interesting information. I see now why I get critics because I always use my own experiences.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

What you added as support in the nitrite toxicity thread Lasse I thought was really on point to the discussion nice job.

 

[Nikoliter]

Sorry you had to go through this. I'd place more fault on the LFS instruction than yourself.

I doubt it was ammonia in the bag; it take much longer to build up than an hour or so. I am guessing some combo of temp and salinity shock. Given your nitrate level, I have to assume your nitrites are not a problem, but worth a test.

I don't believe flow is a problem either. I have these fish in super high frag system flow and they do fine.

I drip shipped fish for 2-4 hours depending on the salinity difference. A couple drops of Amquel to neutralize the ammonia upon opening the bag. I clamp the bag to the INSIDE of the sump to keep the temp level. Slow drip. Set an alarm to remove some water from the bag each hour and check salinity.

i have bought almost all of my fish and cuc from live aquaria. They are all shipped overnight. I typically acclimate for 20 minutes and put them in my tank, and I have never lost one, including the two clown fish I bought from them. Your parameters seem ok. Hopefully it is a freak incident that won’t repeat itself.

 

[JJHLH]

i have bought almost all of my fish and cuc from live aquaria. They are all shipped overnight. I typically acclimate for 20 minutes and put them in my tank, and I have never lost one, including the two clown fish I bought from them. Your parameters seem ok. Hopefully it is a freak incident that won’t repeat itself.

If I ever get fish again in the future I will definitely acclimate them for 20 minutes.

It bothers me greatly that the expert on the acclimation video that I watched prior to getting my fish never mentioned the danger of acclimating too long. Just the opposite. She continually emphasized the importance of going slow.

 

[PandorasChalk]

When you did the two water changes, did you use something to remove chlorine/chloramine like Prime? While I am new to salt water, I know some RODI systems won't remove either if they use crappy carbon blocks.

 

[JJHLH]

No, I didn’t use Prime or any other chemicals.

My RODI system is new. I’ve produced around 30 gallons of water so far with it. The water tested 0 TDS. This is the unit I’m using:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00204CQF6?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

I don’t know if chlorine/chloramine could have gotten through. My local tap water isn’t great, measuring between 152-160 TDS, so maybe that’s a possibility.