Discussing nitrate reduction

[ReefGeezer]

First, your nutrient levels are, IMO, about right. I hear you that the trend is a concern.
Question: Are you running an effective skimmer?
Question: How dense is your coral population? Can you post a picture?

I ask these questions in an effort to understand your needs before making suggestions.

 

[GARRIGA]

I don’t know, that’s why I am looking for more scientific explanations of the different carbon sources people use. I just know what happened when I dosed NoPox. It killed acros in my SPS system. I Never bottomed my system out on no3, I def know better than to go below 5ppm.

Guessing Randy best to determine if NoPox has anything other than carbon. There's an online diy and I recall Randy mentioning one additional component in NoPox not found in diy but never heard of any ill affects from using it.

Could it be something else that had caused the die off and anecdotally blamed on NoPox? Latter just seems odd cause for concern.

 

[kboogie]

I know many people have success with chaeto for nutrient export but every attempt I'm made has resulted is sharp increases in nutrients from chaeto die off. Most recently I had chaeto from a very popular vendor introduce harmful microorganisms that contributed to my wipe out last year. I know my experience here is the outlier so I wouldn't use my experience as the norm. I would say my experience is more of a data point to show chaeto is not guaranteed success.

I currently use a sulfur denitrator on a 300G and It has been amazing. Within less than 20 days of setup I went from nitrates over 120ppm to zero. I went from starving my fish so they will survive to feeding them so they thrive! It was very much set it and forget it.

I've used non-sulfur denitrators on my African cichlid tanks with great success. Your thought on doing this without sulfur is correct. Use a highly porous media, use a trickle flow rate, and recirculate within the denitrator and you will create an anaerobic environment and nitrate conversion will begin!

I learned so much about sulfur denitrators in my research and setup from this community. Part of what I learned is sulfur is used to target a specific heterotrophic bacteria but you can have success with other bacteria that do not require sulfur.

 

[GARRIGA]

Here's what Randy provided.

"There certainly is a complete understanding of what NOPOX is. No uncertainty there. It is mostly ethanol and acetic acid, and smaller amounts of methanol and isopropanol."

Why would any of these components cause issues unless something else unknown included or not the cause to begin with and just coincidental to something else.

 

[Mels_Reef]

First, your nutrient levels are, IMO, about right. I hear you that the trend is a concern.
Question: Are you running an effective skimmer?
Question: How dense is your coral population? Can you post a picture?

I ask these questions in an effort to understand your needs before making suggestions.

Yes, running an old eshopps rated for 350g heavy load. And I skim wet.
I have a 75g DT turned frag tank and a 7’ frag tank both plumbed to a shared sump

Here’s half the frag tank

 

[Mels_Reef]

Here's what Randy provided.

"There certainly is a complete understanding of what NOPOX is. No uncertainty there. It is mostly ethanol and acetic acid, and smaller amounts of methanol and isopropanol."

Why would any of these components cause issues unless something else unknown included or not the cause to begin with and just coincidental to something else.

Good point, but what if you already have a slight amount of pathogenic bacteria in your system and now you’re fueling the hell out of it with NoPox? Thats my theory of why NoPox was a problem for me. But I’m not a scientist. I just know my acros and anecdotal observations.

And no, I try never to incorporate more than one experiment at a time. How would you know what works and what doesn’t? That’s why I know that NoPox is definitely bad for my system and my fish. It DID cure the nutrient problem….but at great cost

 

[GARRIGA]

Good point, but what if you already have a slight amount of pathogenic bacteria in your system and now you’re fueling the hell out of it with NoPox?

Other than oxygen depletion don't see that being a problem and tested overdosing NoPox with fish and CUC and only once did fish show distress although several times I did get a bacterial bloom which subsided within a day or less. I'm talking at the extreme 5x dosage. Doubt the die-off would be an issue but perhaps with acros that is a concern? No skimmer therefore all solved itself naturally. Did run a media filter that was 25% capacity of display. Might be why I didn't see more blooms or why it solved itself quickly.

 

[Mels_Reef]

Other than oxygen depletion don't see that being a problem and tested overdosing NoPox with fish and CUC and only once did fish show distress although several times I did get a bacterial bloom which subsided within a day or less. I'm talking at the extreme 5x dosage. Doubt the die-off would be an issue but perhaps with acros that is a concern? No skimmer therefore all solved itself naturally. Did run a media filter that was 25% capacity of display. Might be why I didn't see more blooms or why it solved itself quickly.

I appreciate your experience, but for me NoPox is absolutely not an option for me again. I can’t speak for all SPS keepers, just myself.

 

[Mels_Reef]

An algae scrubber like a santa
Monica surf 2x or surf 4 would be stronger at reducing nitrates than cheato and take up 1/4 the space. It also is self contained inside a box, and algae will not leak out. Algae scrubbers are also a natural method of carbon dosing

I run scrubbers on all my tanks in the last 10 years and have not done water changes in that time. I do replenish trace with all for reef or various products as needed

At $399 I’m not gonna be able to go this route at the moment. Thanks for mentioning though!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am at a point in my 8 yr old, 200g SPS dominant mixed reef that I need to find an easy solution to reverse the escalating no3, but also decrease water changes.

Currently my po4 is steady between .06-.12 and my nitrate is drifting upwards of 13-17 depending how much of a water change I do weekly. I use Hanna test meters and have confirmed their accuracy with multiple ICP test results. I test about 2-3 time a week. I am nowhere near a dangerous level of nitrate but I want to have a reliable consumption technique established soon, in order to decrease my water changes. Salt mix has become way too expensive for that to be an economical solution for NO3.

I run all the typical equipment but do not have a refugium. I do have a 1.5lb bag of zeolite media in the sump. I rinse the media once a week during a water change to prevent detritus build up but don’t do anything other than that with it. Nothing else out of the ordinary besides 80mL Balling in my BRS 2 part + Part C. I started the Balling hybrid method about 2-3 weeks ago. I haven’t noticed any effect, good or bad, on my nutrients (or pollution as I like to think of it).

I have tried carbon dosing (via NoPox) a couple times and both times I lost a lot of acros and some fish started having strange infections (bacterial I am assuming). I ended up losing 2 of 3 of those fish. The third fish, that had a strange mouth infection, recovered once I quit dosing NoPox and had about 4 water changes under the belt. So, needless to say, I am not a fan of carbon dosing and more specifically NoPox. Are all carbon sources as toxic to acros as NoPox has been for me?

I have also run a sulfur denitrator in the past and over time my sulfur levels went “critically high” on icp tests and I started losing acros so I don’t want to go that route again. However, I still have the denitrator reactor and have been wondering what would happen if I ran the reactor with calcium reactor media and a tiny bit of zeolite media instead of sulfur? My thinking is an anaerobic environment is what the recirculating reactor is creating and any media should propagate nitrate consuming anaerobic bacteria? What are your thoughts on this @Randy Holmes-Farley ?

I’d also like to get some feedback from SPS keepers on how they maintain 10-15ppm nitrate without killing your more sensitive acros? My goal is to bring my water change schedule down to 15% every 3-4 weeks (since I am utilizing the balling trace element dosing) instead of the current 10-12% weekly that I do now.

Thanks everyone
Mel

I don’t think I’d do anything at these levels, but both growing macroalgae and vinegar dosing are decent plans.

Fish infections are rarely if ever caused by organic dosing that have seen.

 

[Mels_Reef]

I don’t think I’d do anything at these levels, but both growing macroalgae and vinegar dosing are decent plans.

Thanks Randy. I am getting ready for intervention and just loooking for the best option for future me.:)

Could you elaborate on my question about the sulfur denitrator without the sulfur media? Thoughts?

I have also run a sulfur denitrator in the past and over time my sulfur levels went “critically high” on icp tests and I started losing acros so I don’t want to go that route again. However, I still have the denitrator reactor and have been wondering what would happen if I ran the reactor with calcium reactor media and a tiny bit of zeolite media instead of sulfur? My thinking is an anaerobic environment is what the recirculating reactor is creating and any media should propagate nitrate consuming anaerobic bacteria? What are your thoughts on this @Randy Holmes-Farley ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy. I am getting ready for intervention and just loooking for the best option for future me.:)

Could you elaborate on my question about the sulfur denitrator without the sulfur media? Thoughts?

I have also run a sulfur denitrator in the past and over time my sulfur levels went “critically high” on icp tests and I started losing acros so I don’t want to go that route again. However, I still have the denitrator reactor and have been wondering what would happen if I ran the reactor with calcium reactor media and a tiny bit of zeolite media instead of sulfur? My thinking is an anaerobic environment is what the recirculating reactor is creating and any media should propagate nitrate consuming anaerobic bacteria? What are your thoughts on this @Randy Holmes-Farley ?

I don’t think it will accomplish much without added organics. There are organic based denitrifiers, but they can be a little tricky to run long term.

 

[Mels_Reef]

I have a media tank I keep setup as an emergency QT and also cultivate pods in. I think I will try the denitrator, with only ARM media that you would use for a calcium reactor and some ceramic rings for surface area, in that tank to see what happens. If I can get 0 nitrate effluent then I’ll go with it on the SPS system. I’m guessing there should be no difference in organisms than a deep sand bed

 

[Lasse]

There is different way to use organic carbon. The most used by aquarist is just to dose the DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) into the water column. The other way is the way described in Donowans thread about nitrat destroyer - you dose it into a container of some type of media. This means that you target feed the filter with DOC. Of cause you can convert your sulphur filter into a filter that is similar with Donovans nitrat destroyer. Just remember a very slow speed (the same slow speed as you had when it was a sulphur denitrator)

But this is very difficult - if not impossible - without dosing DOC. In this case - DOC has two different tasks to do,

1. Create a fast growing community of heterotrophic facultative bacteria. A facultative bacteria is a bacteria that use O2 in its metabolisms but if all O2 is consumed because of high bacteria growth and low flow can turn to use - in this case - NO3 in the metabolism instead. O2 is used as electron acceptor in the metabolism and these bacteria can change to use NO3 as electron acceptor. In this step - DOC is basically used as an bacterial oxygen depletion agent. The flow of oxygenated water determines how much DOC must be added.

2. If there is an electron acceptor – then there must also be an electron donor. In aerobic metabolism the pair (acceptor/donor) is oxygen/hydrogen - in anaerobic metabolism its different - in our case denitrification - the pair is Nitrate/DOC. You need some surplus DOC (not used in the oxygen-depleting process) to serve as donor of electrons

This means that you need to dose as much DOC that both goals are achieved but not more. How much is this? It depends on the flow per area in the filter because you need the water to be oxygen free asap when it passe the media bed - the bed above the oxygenated part is your denitrifikation chamber. You start the filter with a constant low flow and low dosing of rather diluted DOC. If you after a week or two still have the same NO3 in the inlet and outlet of the filter - raise the DOC dose in small steps. When you read near 0 in the outlet - hold the dose at that amount.

If you now get a stable reading around 0-1 mg/L NO3 in the outlet - all DOC is consumed in the filter and you will not have any in the water column.

The trick is to balance flow and dose that all added DOC is consumed before it reach the water column.

Most literature I have read about best DOC for denitrification state that ethanol is the best suited DOC.

I use 7 % ethanol in my remote reversed DSB. My system is described here. My construction give a rather large flow area which allow me to run a rather high flow through my bed (around 25 cm thick) I use coral sand of different size as media today.

Hope this help a little

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mels_Reef]

There is different way to use organic carbon. The most used by aquarist is just to dose the DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) into the water column. The other way is the way described in Donowans thread about nitrat destroyer - you dose it into a container of some type of media. This means that you target feed the filter with DOC. Of cause you can convert your sulphur filter into a filter that is similar with Donovans nitrat destroyer. Just remember a very slow speed (the same slow speed as you had when it was a sulphur denitrator)

But this is very difficult - if not impossible - without dosing DOC. In this case - DOC has two different tasks to do,

1. Create a fast growing community of heterotrophic facultative bacteria. A facultative bacteria is a bacteria that use O2 in its metabolisms but if all O2 is consumed because of high bacteria growth and low flow can turn to use - in this case - NO3 in the metabolism instead. O2 is used as electron acceptor in the metabolism and these bacteria can change to use NO3 as electron acceptor. In this step - DOC is basically used as an bacterial oxygen depletion agent. The flow of oxygenated water determines how much DOC must be added.

2. If there is an electron acceptor – then there must also be an electron donor. In aerobic metabolism the pair (acceptor/donor) is oxygen/hydrogen - in anaerobic metabolism (in our case denitrification) - the pair is Nitrate/DOC. You need some surplus DOC (not used in the oxygen-depleting process) to serve as donor of electrons

This means that you need to dose as much DOC that both goals are achieved but not more. How much is this? It depends on the flow per area in the filter because you need the water to be oxygen free asap when it passe the media bed - the bed above the oxygenated part is your denitrifikation chamber. You start the filter with a constant low flow and low dosing of rather diluted DOC. If you after a week or two still have the same NO3 in the inlet and outlet of the filter - raise the DOC dose in small steps. When you read near 0 in the outlet - hold the dose at that amount.

If you now get a stable reading around 0-1 mg/L NO3 in the outlet - all DOC is consumed in the filter and you will not have any in the water column.

The trick is to balance flow and dose that all added DOC is consumed before it reach the water column.

Most literature I have read about best DOC for denitrification state that ethanol is the best suited DOC.

I use 7 % ethanol in my remote reversed DSB. My system is described here. My construction give a rather large flow area which allow me to run a rather high flow through my bed (around 25 cm thick) I use coral sand of different size as media today.

Hope this help a little

Sincerely Lasse

Do you keep SPS?

Why does a sulfur denitrator work without dosing carbon? Is the acceptor/donor NO3/sulfur then?

 

[Pistondog]

I am at a point in my 8 yr old, 200g SPS dominant mixed reef that I need to find an easy solution to reverse the escalating no3, but also decrease water changes.

Currently my po4 is steady between .06-.12 and my nitrate is drifting upwards of 13-17 depending how much of a water change I do weekly. I use Hanna test meters and have confirmed their accuracy with multiple ICP test results. I test about 2-3 time a week. I am nowhere near a dangerous level of nitrate but I want to have a reliable consumption technique established soon, in order to decrease my water changes. Salt mix has become way too expensive for that to be an economical solution for NO3.

I run all the typical equipment but do not have a refugium. I do have a 1.5lb bag of zeolite media in the sump. I rinse the media once a week during a water change to prevent detritus build up but don’t do anything other than that with it. Nothing else out of the ordinary besides 80mL Balling in my BRS 2 part + Part C. I started the Balling hybrid method about 2-3 weeks ago. I haven’t noticed any effect, good or bad, on my nutrients (or pollution as I like to think of it).

I have tried carbon dosing (via NoPox) a couple times and both times I lost a lot of acros and some fish started having strange infections (bacterial I am assuming). I ended up losing 2 of 3 of those fish. The third fish, that had a strange mouth infection, recovered once I quit dosing NoPox and had about 4 water changes under the belt. So, needless to say, I am not a fan of carbon dosing and more specifically NoPox. Are all carbon sources as toxic to acros as NoPox has been for me?

I have also run a sulfur denitrator in the past and over time my sulfur levels went “critically high” on icp tests and I started losing acros so I don’t want to go that route again. However, I still have the denitrator reactor and have been wondering what would happen if I ran the reactor with calcium reactor media and a tiny bit of zeolite media instead of sulfur? My thinking is an anaerobic environment is what the recirculating reactor is creating and any media should propagate nitrate consuming anaerobic bacteria? What are your thoughts on this @Randy Holmes-Farley ?

I’d also like to get some feedback from SPS keepers on how they maintain 10-15ppm nitrate without killing your more sensitive acros? My goal is to bring my water change schedule down to 15% every 3-4 weeks (since I am utilizing the balling trace element dosing) instead of the current 10-12% weekly that I do now.

Thanks everyone
Mel

I have the same experience with carbon dosing as you describe.
Carbon dosing feeds all bacteria, not just the 'good' ones. I believe it contributes to an unbalanced microbiome. Tried them all, vodka, vinegar, diy nopox, bacto balance, ab+.
Also stopped running a refugium as some believe the algea docs contribute to unbalancing as well.
Unfortunately, this is of little help in your search.
My regime is opposite currently, after reducing feeding, we dose ammonium bicarb to maintain 10 ppm nitrates or so.

 

[Aquariumaddictuk]

I am at a point in my 8 yr old, 200g SPS dominant mixed reef that I need to find an easy solution to reverse the escalating no3, but also decrease water changes.

Currently my po4 is steady between .06-.12 and my nitrate is drifting upwards of 13-17 depending how much of a water change I do weekly. I use Hanna test meters and have confirmed their accuracy with multiple ICP test results. I test about 2-3 time a week. I am nowhere near a dangerous level of nitrate but I want to have a reliable consumption technique established soon, in order to decrease my water changes. Salt mix has become way too expensive for that to be an economical solution for NO3.

I run all the typical equipment but do not have a refugium. I do have a 1.5lb bag of zeolite media in the sump. I rinse the media once a week during a water change to prevent detritus build up but don’t do anything other than that with it. Nothing else out of the ordinary besides 80mL Balling in my BRS 2 part + Part C. I started the Balling hybrid method about 2-3 weeks ago. I haven’t noticed any effect, good or bad, on my nutrients (or pollution as I like to think of it).

I have tried carbon dosing (via NoPox) a couple times and both times I lost a lot of acros and some fish started having strange infections (bacterial I am assuming). I ended up losing 2 of 3 of those fish. The third fish, that had a strange mouth infection, recovered once I quit dosing NoPox and had about 4 water changes under the belt. So, needless to say, I am not a fan of carbon dosing and more specifically NoPox. Are all carbon sources as toxic to acros as NoPox has been for me?

I have also run a sulfur denitrator in the past and over time my sulfur levels went “critically high” on icp tests and I started losing acros so I don’t want to go that route again. However, I still have the denitrator reactor and have been wondering what would happen if I ran the reactor with calcium reactor media and a tiny bit of zeolite media instead of sulfur? My thinking is an anaerobic environment is what the recirculating reactor is creating and any media should propagate nitrate consuming anaerobic bacteria? What are your thoughts on this @Randy Holmes-Farley ?

I’d also like to get some feedback from SPS keepers on how they maintain 10-15ppm nitrate without killing your more sensitive acros? My goal is to bring my water change schedule down to 15% every 3-4 weeks (since I am utilizing the balling trace element dosing) instead of the current 10-12% weekly that I do now.

Thanks everyone
Mel

If you have the zeolite in situ, perhaps try KZ zeostart or if preferred, vinegar using the charts on the forum.
I'm sceptical of nopox having the drastic effects described.
It's a safe product unless overdosed.
Many SPS keepers utilise carbon dosing without losing acro's.

 

[Mels_Reef]

If you have the zeolite in situ, perhaps try KZ zeostart or if preferred, vinegar using the charts on the forum.
I'm sceptical of nopox having the drastic effects described.
It's a safe product unless overdosed.
Many SPS keepers utilise carbon dosing without losing acro's.

Do you keep SPS?

 

[Aquariumaddictuk]

Do you keep SPS?

Predominantly SPS & clams

 

[Mels_Reef]

I’m sure everyone’s experience is different but to imply I am ignorant about the effects of NoPox dosing on my SPS system is being kinda rude. Look at Pistondogs post. He also has problems with it, and various other carbon sources as well