DIY Alkatronic reagent

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just as an FYI, mg/m3 is not a unit of measure ordinarily used in water solutions. It is a concentration in air. Thus, in this case it is exposure to sulfuric acid (likely droplets) in air.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Ok, this sounds like fun. Let me see if I can establish what the Molar/Normality concentration is of the reagent. I have a basic 0 - 50G scale and food grade NaOH on hand, thanks to Randy's new recipe. I will need to procure a stir plate, volumetric flasks and a 0.1N Hydrochloric Acid Standard. I plan to use a gravimetric method rather than volumetric. Phenolphthalein is a nuisance to locate, so I guess I will have to calibrate a PH probe.

I am far from a scientist, but I do like a good challenge. Let's see where this goes.

Dennis

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I have most of the needed equipment ordered and on the way. The biggest hurdle has been getting access to standardized acid solutions. Fisher Scientific (Thermo Fisher) has everything I require at a reasonable price, but after I created an account I discovered that all the prices vanished, and the acids are only available to corporate accounts. It makes no sense that I can (and have) bought ~32% Hcl (Muriatic acid) at the hardware store, while ordering a product with a fraction of that potency is strictly controlled. Luckily there is a seller in the UK that mail orders 0.1N Hcl in small quantities (500 ml).

Dennis

 

[ReeferBud]

I have most of the needed equipment ordered and on the way. The biggest hurdle has been getting access to standardized acid solutions. Fisher Scientific (Thermo Fisher) has everything I require at a reasonable price, but after I created an account I discovered that all the prices vanished, and the acids are only available to corporate accounts. It makes no sense that I can (and have) bought ~32% Hcl (Muriatic acid) at the hardware store, while ordering a product with a fraction of that potency is strictly controlled. Luckily there is a seller in the UK that mail orders 0.1N Hcl in small quantities (500 ml).

Dennis

Sorry, I may be missing it but why do you need to purchase a standard acid solution? You need the standard base to titrate and figure out the concentration of the reagent.

Then, can’t you just but sulfuric acid at a known purity off of amazon to make your own reagent? I think that would be good enough.

I found this 1M sulfuric acid on Amazon. Wouldn't this work?

Sulfuric Acid Solution, 1M, 1L - The Curated Chemical Collection Amazon product

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Sorry, I may be missing it but why do you need to purchase a standard acid solution? You need the standard base to titrate and figure out the concentration of the reagent.

Then, can’t you just but sulfuric acid at a known purity off of amazon to make your own reagent? I think that would be good enough.

Unfortunately Amazon does not sell that product in Canada. Eventually I will switch to using a New York state address, but I am trying to avoid having to drive to Niagara Falls NY to pick up online orders. The last time I used them, I was waiting in a long line, and the counter person was telling the person being served about some joker that had a bunch of boxes that weighed a ton and he had to move them many times in the warehouse over the past week. When I got to the front and identified myself, he asked what was in the boxes?? Rocks, specifically dry reef rocks. The whole line of people got a good chuckle.

I will be making my own 0.1N sodium hydroxide solution (4g/1L), so the 0.1N acid solution will be used to validate the accuracy of my base solution and as a comparison to the reagent. It is not totally necessary, but it will help to confirm that my scale, or myself, has not bungled something.

Dennis

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Just giving an update on my project. Most of the equipment has arrived, I am just waiting on the solutions to arrive. I ended up ordering a 0.N Sodium Hydroxide solution as well to help validate my methods. So I should have everything required to do the titration along with the means to validate my results. I expect the solutions to arrive in the next 2 weeks.

Dennis

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I wonder if a lot of these commits are designed to derail this thread.

I haven't tried it yet, but once my alkatronic concentrate is spent, I will use the recipe that my buddy gave me.

7.2ml of muriatic acid (from pool supply store 29% hydrogen chloride by weight) to 1 gallon of distilled water.

Again, I haven't tried it yet, but the beauty of the alkatronic is the ability to change the baseline calibration to accommodate.

I don't know where my friend got this information, but he's been doing it with his alkatronic for a few years now.

If anything this is a good start...

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I wonder if a lot of these commits are designed to derail this thread.

I haven't tried it yet, but once my alkatronic concentrate is spent, I will use the recipe that my buddy gave me.

7.2ml of muriatic acid (from pool supply store 29% hydrogen chloride by weight) to 1 gallon of distilled water.

Again, I haven't tried it yet, but the beauty of the alkatronic is the ability to change the baseline calibration to accommodate.

I don't know where my friend got this information, but he's been doing it with his alkatronic for a few years now.

If anything this is a good start...

There was another poster, either in this thread or another one, that mentioned a calculated amount of muriatic acid that could be used. I PM'd him, but never received a reply. That is why I decided to see if I could figure it out myself.

Your info is the first hint of a possible DIY formulation. Thanks for contributing it. I have muriatic acid on hand, but it is 20 Baume, 31.5% HCl. I do plan to work out the amount of 31.5% HCl to use, so hopefully the final amount will dovetail with your amount of 29% HCl as well.

Dennis

 

[ZaneTer]

There was another poster, either in this thread or another one, that mentioned a calculated amount of muriatic acid that could be used. I PM'd him, but never received a reply. That is why I decided to see if I could figure it out myself.

Your info is the first hint of a possible DIY formulation. Thanks for contributing it. I have muriatic acid on hand, but it is 20 Baume, 31.5% HCl. I do plan to work out the amount of 31.5% HCl to use, so hopefully the final amount will dovetail with your amount of 29% HCl as well.

Dennis

If you find a solution please represent it by weight or volume as a percentage. The habit on R2R for switching between metric and imperial can be problematic for some.

Thanks

 

[Dennis Cartier]

If you find a solution please represent it by weight or volume as a percentage. The habit on R2R for switching between metric and imperial can be problematic for some.

Thanks

I am one of the people that it is problematic for. The move from Imperial to Metric occured in Canada while I was in grade school, so I understand most Imperial measurements along with all the Metric equivalents. This understanding does not extend to Imperial volume measurements unfortunately. Most volume measurements in Imperial appear to be arcane and nonsensical when compared to their standardized Metric equivalents.

I plan to publish all my results with the main objective of calculating the required amount of normalized acid required to replace the reagent. If I do confuse terminology or measurement scales, hopefully the posters who are chemistry focused will provide helpful corrections.

Dennis

 

[ZaneTer]

I am one of the people that it is problematic for. The move from Imperial to Metric occured in Canada while I was in grade school, so I understand most Imperial measurements along with all the Metric equivalents. This understanding does not extend to Imperial volume measurements unfortunately. Most volume measurements in Imperial appear to be arcane and nonsensical when compared to their standardized Metric equivalents.

I plan to publish all my results with the main objective of calculating the required amount of normalized acid required to replace the reagent. If I do confuse terminology or measurement scales, hopefully the posters who are chemistry focused will provide helpful corrections.

Dennis

Thank you very much!

 

[ZaneTer]

Ok, I managed to source 1L of sulphuric acid @ 98% purity. I will be running a rather coarse set of tests to determine the amount of sulphuric acid to add to 1L of RODI water to come out at the same strength as the alkatronic reagent.

Please be patient as it’s still another 3 weeks before I fly home.

I will post the results as soon as I can.

For the chemistry buffs please could you recommend me a safe measurement container such as a syringe. I have some concerns regarding personal safety around high strength acids.

 

[ZaneTer]

For anyone interested the results will be posted in millilitres.
1.3:1000 is the example I will give.

Acid will be added to 1L

NOT made up to 1L

 

[Stigigemla]

Muriatic acid doesnt work because it evaporates to the air. It also diffuses through the walls of a pet bottle.
For a onetime measurement its good. Sulfuric acid does not evaporate in low concentration. 98% leaves a smoke that will damage Your lungs. If the air humidity is low spill will become more concentrated and cause rust on metal.
I would use citric acid. Does not evaporate or interact with air humidity. But of coarse the water its solved in can evaporate if kept open.
I would use drip bags as in a hospital to minimize the evaporation.

 

[ZaneTer]

I will certainly be doing the mixing and sealing of chemicals outside in the yard. I am UK based so hydrochloric acid is extremely difficult to get hold of even at 10%.
The fact I can get 98% sulphuric acid flies in the face of logic but the situation is what it is.
I have 4 x 2.5L polyethylene containers with lids to store the diluted reagent and I will put a 1mm breather hole in the cap to prevent any vacuum from forming in them.

All suggestions and comments are welcome

 

[Stigigemla]

Citric acid should be easy to find in a food store with a good sortiment. (Asian)?

 

[Stigigemla]

Citric acid should be easy to find in a food store with a good sortiment. (Asian)?
But as You have the sulfuric acid - I would use it.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

When using citric acid as the reagent, Is there any danger with putting the waste water back into the tank?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

When using citric acid as the reagent, Is there any danger with putting the waste water back into the tank?

It will act as a carbon source, if nothing else. Whether that is significant depends on the volume you add.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Thank You Randy.

Has anyone calculated the ratio for citric acid? A few weeks ago I bought some gravity feed bags and I just received this 5lb bag from amazon and was experimenting last night.

Amazon product

Kangaroo 1000mL Enteral Feeding Gravity Bag Set at HealthyKin.com

Kangaroo 1000mL Enteral Feeding Gravity Bag Set from HealthyKin.com is used when a patient has adequate gastric motility to tolerate a bolus feed.

www.healthykin.com

I didn't calculate anything, I decided to take a reverse engineering approach. I simply grabbed my kitchen scale and measured out distilled water and the powder from the citric acid.

These gravity bags are only 1000ml, which was my starting point. I weighed 1000g of distilled water (grocery store) and added an extra 5g of citric acid. Why 5 grams? No real reason, just figured it was a good starting point. I mixed the solution until it was completely dissolved.

I removed the old reagent from pump C and the line by using the priming option on the app. Then added the citric acid mixture to the alkatronic. Again, I primed pump C and let it flush out 20ml.

Ran a test and quickly realized that 5g of acid was too much, the results of the test displayed "4.54 4.170". What does those numbers mean to me??? I'm just guessing but 4.54 is the limited range that the alkatronic could read, so it was off the charts. and the 4.170 is the pH probe reading. Again I can be completely wrong, I was just using logic and guessing.

I took the remaining reagent and poured it back into a container to measure it, I don't remember what it was, roughly 970g. What ever the number was, I doubled it with more distilled water, essentially bringing the mixture to roughly 2.5g to 1000g.

Flushed out the alkatronic again the same way and ran the test. This time it made it through the entire test and the pH probe hit it's target measurement of 4.230 to render a result.

Before I tell you what the result was, I grabbed my hanna tester and measured the DKH. 3 tests and the results were the same 7.8.

The results of the citric acid solution: the measurement was 7.45. I ran the alkatronic test 4 more times:
7.36 4.230,
7.45 4.230,
7.38 4.230,
7.45 4.230.

this was close enough to correct through the "baseline calibration" on the app.

I know this wasn't a scientific approach but it should give those that are more qualified a good starting point, and in hopes to keep this thread from going no where, I'm trying to breathe new hope to it.