DIY Alkatronic reagent

Silver14SS

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Thank you for keeping the thread alive. I'm very interested in this topic, I have about 1.5L on concentrated reagent left so it'll be a while before I try DIY. I have that same bag of citric acid for cleaning pumps, works great :p

It's been 20 or so years since I had a chemistry class, it's embarassing how little of it I remember so here come the rudimentary questions!

If one has a pH meter and the diluted Alkatronic reagent, could a DIY version be made simply by matching the pH of the two liquids?

Which of the of the DIY reagent options are the least impactful to return to the tank?

Are there issues storing any of the DIY reagents for extended periods of time?
 

Stigigemla

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No matching the pH is not enough. You will have to titrate with an alcaline solution to pH 4.3 .
Sodium bicarbonate or carbonate are not good because they will leave carbonic acid that will convert to a higher or lower amount of CO2 to go off as a gas and that will have an unstable pH as the result.
I wood use Sodium hydroxide thats in many food stores as "drain cleaner".
Just check that it is only sodium hydroxide. Concentration is not very important. You only need the same result with Your home made acid solution and the Alcatronic solution.
 

Sisterlimonpot

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Is there any reason citric acid shouldn't be used? It would be an amazing option since it's so accessible.
Of course I will defer to the experts, however I have been using it since my last post, in this thread, I don't dose carbon and could stand to because my nitrates and phosphates are on the high side (25 and 0.13 respectively) I saw a little cloudiness the first day and has since subsided and the water column is much clearer. Of course all this can be avoided if you don't drain the waste water back into the tank.

Here is a screenshot of my chart:

ywjbjqsl.jpg


citric acid works, and to piggy back onto your question,

Will there be a problem with degradation of the pump internals when using citric acid as opposed to the recommended reagent?
 

Sisterlimonpot

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If one has a pH meter and the diluted Alkatronic reagent, could a DIY version be made simply by matching the pH of the two liquids?
Disclaimer: I'm in no position to credit or discredit @Stigigemla expertise but my little test proved his statement to be true.

@Silver14SS I did chart this when trying to make a citric acid reagent. I tested the pH of the remaining homemade reagent (7.2 ml of muriatic acid : 1 gallon of distilled). The pH of the muriatic acid reagent was 1.45. When trying to get a good starting point, I mixed 20 grams of citric acid to 1000g of distilled and the pH was only 1.71, I don't know how much more I would've had to add to bring it down to 1.45. But by that logic it would've been too acidic for the alkatronic.

FYI, the final pH of 2.5 grams citric acid : 1000g distilled was 2.57. That's a huge difference.
 

Stigigemla

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First: The titration for kH measurement is normally done from aquarium water pH down to 4.3.
The interesting point is at 4.3 where the measurement stops. So the titration curve of the acid shall be steep at pH 4.3.
And I have to admit: Citric acid is a bad choice. Oxalic acid is better. (Might be possible to find in Home depot or similar shops).
Still better is acetic acid and the mineral acids - muriatic, sulfur and nitric acid.
Muriatic acid can diffuse through the walls of a PET bottle. I dont think the others do.
Stains of sulfuric acid can destroy almost anything if You have low air humidity.
Nitric acid I dont know.
Acetic acid can maybe evaporate if You store it with an open lid. The risk is less the more it is diluted.
 

choooch

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Still looking for an option I can pick up locally. Anyone know what the difference is between battery grade sulfuric acid (battery electrolyte) and reagent grade sulfuric acid, other than concentration?
 

Christopher Presley

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So if muriatic acid does diffuse through plastic is the solution to use glass? I’ve seen muriatic being used in different locations for DIY solution so I assume it can’t be too far off.
 

Stigigemla

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Muriatic acid does not diffuse through all kinds of plastic. I buy my 37% in plastic bottles and in ancient times in glass bottles. But PET doesnt work.
Of coarse there is a risk that it can diffuse through the tubes to and from the dosing pump.
 

Christopher Presley

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Muriatic acid does not diffuse through all kinds of plastic. I buy my 37% in plastic bottles and in ancient times in glass bottles. But PET doesnt work.
Of coarse there is a risk that it can diffuse through the tubes to and from the dosing pump.
Good to know, I’m assuming there will be a PET stamp to know? I’m just using the brs one gallon jugs.
 

Christopher Presley

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So here’s what I got, going off the other guys formula, he’s using 29% at 7.2 per gallon but the brand chemical that’s readily available by me and amazon is sunnyside. Theirs is 31.45%, so I would need to add 6.64ml instead of the 7.2ml per gallon. So is that the amount I need just to achieve the concentrated reagent that still needs diluted to 4 to 1? Or is that creating the already final diluted product that is fed right into the alkatronic?
 

erky

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1.9 ml of ~31.45% muriatic acid per L of RO water is very close to what Alkatronic reagent measures out to be.

What I have been doing as a DIY for over a year in my alkatronic.

I do not use the baseline correction either, bc i do not care, this solution is just what I use as a standard, is my alk exactly 9.5 like the display says when testing, i dont think so, it is probably off a tiny bit, but my measurements are consistent so who cares!

You are all welcome ;)
 

erky

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So here’s what I got, going off the other guys formula, he’s using 29% at 7.2 per gallon but the brand chemical that’s readily available by me and amazon is sunnyside. Theirs is 31.45%, so I would need to add 6.64ml instead of the 7.2ml per gallon. So is that the amount I need just to achieve the concentrated reagent that still needs diluted to 4 to 1? Or is that creating the already final diluted product that is fed right into the alkatronic?
no dilution is needed at that point, basically the same I do and have been doing for over a year.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Thank you for keeping the thread alive. I'm very interested in this topic, I have about 1.5L on concentrated reagent left so it'll be a while before I try DIY. I have that same bag of citric acid for cleaning pumps, works great :p

It's been 20 or so years since I had a chemistry class, it's embarassing how little of it I remember so here come the rudimentary questions!

If one has a pH meter and the diluted Alkatronic reagent, could a DIY version be made simply by matching the pH of the two liquids?

Which of the of the DIY reagent options are the least impactful to return to the tank?

Are there issues storing any of the DIY reagents for extended periods of time?

No. pH by itself is not adequately sensitive.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Still looking for an option I can pick up locally. Anyone know what the difference is between battery grade sulfuric acid (battery electrolyte) and reagent grade sulfuric acid, other than concentration?

Purity, obviously. What those impurities may be will vary by manufacturer.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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First: The titration for kH measurement is normally done from aquarium water pH down to 4.3.
The interesting point is at 4.3 where the measurement stops. So the titration curve of the acid shall be steep at pH 4.3.
And I have to admit: Citric acid is a bad choice. Oxalic acid is better. (Might be possible to find in Home depot or similar shops).
Still better is acetic acid and the mineral acids - muriatic, sulfur and nitric acid.
Muriatic acid can diffuse through the walls of a PET bottle. I dont think the others do.
Stains of sulfuric acid can destroy almost anything if You have low air humidity.
Nitric acid I dont know.
Acetic acid can maybe evaporate if You store it with an open lid. The risk is less the more it is diluted.

Acetic acid is not suitable for an alkalinity titration because it's pKa is too high (at 4.75, it is above the titration endpoint, so near the endpoint at 4.3 or so, most of the acid you are adding will not ionize to H+, and you will greatly overestimate the alkalinity).

I'd avoid any organic acid.
 

Beonedge

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First: The titration for kH measurement is normally done from aquarium water pH down to 4.3.
The interesting point is at 4.3 where the measurement stops. So the titration curve of the acid shall be steep at pH 4.3.
And I have to admit: Citric acid is a bad choice. Oxalic acid is better. (Might be possible to find in Home depot or similar shops).
Still better is acetic acid and the mineral acids - muriatic, sulfur and nitric acid.
Muriatic acid can diffuse through the walls of a PET bottle. I dont think the others do.
Stains of sulfuric acid can destroy almost anything if You have low air humidity.
Nitric acid I dont know.
Acetic acid can maybe evaporate if You store it with an open lid. The risk is less the more it is diluted.
What is the problem with citric acid solution , why to avoid it ?
 

Stigigemla

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The titration curve of citric acid is not very steep at low pH.
1574078359378.png

An optimum acid should have a steep curve around pH = 4.3 Like Muriatic acid as an example:
1574078520426.png
 

gobble

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Did someone find a workable alternative to their reagent? They can’t manage to keep it in stock so a DIY alternative would be helpful.
 
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