DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

[tbrown]

If the bacteria populated on the glass surfaces.

 

[Anxur]

I agree and what I was mainly trying to get at............at least 5.0 seems like a reasonable level to account for test kit errors, accuracy, the actual tester variable, ect.

Are you dosing ammonia?

 

[Big E]

No

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could you add a weeks worth to an ATO container after mixing?

The mentioned concern of degradation is a possibility. Akin to cycling the ATO container. It may be OK for a while, but eventually it might not be.

 

[Jedi Shrimp]

Thank you for all the informations @Randy Holmes-Farley !
A question, Fauna Marin have a new product called “coral wow” and the elements inside are “
Water, ammonium compounds, trace elements, marine biopolymers, coral-specific biomodulators”.
Do think it’s the same basis as your formula ? Seems like it’s to help to regulate the nitrate level and be sure coral have food with the ammonium, but I don’t know what I’m talking about .

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for all the informations @Randy Holmes-Farley !
A question, Fauna Marin have a new product called “coral wow” and the elements inside are “
Water, ammonium compounds, trace elements, marine biopolymers, coral-specific biomodulators”.
Do think it’s the same basis as your formula ? Seems like it’s to help to regulate the nitrate level and be sure coral have food with the ammonium, but I don’t know what I’m talking about .

I don’t like using products with secret ingredients, so I would not recommend this product. Coral-specific biomodulators sounds ridiculous to me (what are we even modulating, and in what direction, not to even get into the coral specific part, what the material actually is, or if it accomplishes that), and I do not trust their understanding of science to develop secret ingredients.

 

[Jedi Shrimp]

I don’t like using products with secret ingredients, so I would not recommend this product. Coral-specific biomodulators sounds ridiculous to me (what are we even modulating, and in what direction, not to even get into the coral specific part, what the material actually is, or if it accomplishes that), and I do not trust their understanding of science to develop secret ingredients.

Thank you, make sense, sad to not know more about the real science, or the lack of it…

 

[pitvi]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

i have a question to you and hope you can confirm my thought on that topic; Ammonia and 24/7 ozone dosing

i have a 90 gallon sps dominant tank, always low on nutrients not a lot of fish, but going really well.
i dose po4 and no3 daily, was dosing ammonia before but could not get my no3 up - it was clearly a bottleneck and i got 0.00 no3 in the ICP analysis (i also could ivestigate that my po4 raised when there was zero nitrate, kH consumption stopped, as soon as i dosed no3, po4 got consumed quickly again and kH consumption was back to normal again - so for me it was clearly the bottleneck).

i am also running ozone 24/7 but on a very low level, it has to be between 10-18mg ozone per hour.

i often heard that ozone should be dosed only a few hours because it can "burn your traces" and also ammonia. therefore i changed ammonia to direct no3 dosing again an with that i achieve about 1-3 no3

am i correct that in my situation ammonia dosing is not ideal? do you also think i should change my ozone dosing on a few hours a day but ramp up the ozone mg for that time to achieve the same (clear water) ?
information aside, i have no problems with my traces, ICP also does not show any problems with that

Best regards

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

At worst, ozone will convert some ammonia into nitrate before organisms get it , so I do not think ozone and ammonia dosing are a bad combination.

Ozone will alter the chemical state of some trace elements. I think it is unclear whether that is a problem. Burn them sounds bad, but if it is more properly called changing the form, it removes the negative connotation that lacks supporting evidence as to its import.

I discuss both of these issues in the first article below:

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 2: Equipment and Safety by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 3: Changes in a Reef Aquarium upon Initiating Ozone by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[pitvi]

I discuss both of these issues in the first article below:

Thanks a lot! will dig into that - i only had my precious water chemistry book from armin glaser here, but i didn't know your articles about that

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks a lot! will dig into that - i only had my precious water chemistry book from armin glaser here, but i didn't know your articles about that

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing.

 

[Miami Reef]

Does pH determine how “bioavailable” ammonia is to corals and clams?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does pH determine how “bioavailable” ammonia is to corals and clams?

That's an interesting question. Transporters can certainly be imagined that only take up either ammonium or ammonia, but not likely both.

I've not located a paper that clearly makes the case about pH vs ammonia bioavailability in corals. The ammonia/ammonium equilibrium is not the only thing that may change with pH as transport proteins themselves can have strong pH impacts on their effectiveness, even if the transported ion is something like sodium that has no pH dependence).

But this paper linked below clearly shows ammonia as the molecule taken up and not ammonium (see Figure 1C, lower right corner)). Their paper, however, is not primarily about that aspect but later processing of the internal ammonium, and they may have just made an incorrect assumption about ammonia uptake.

Nevertheless, I'd take it as a starting hypothesis supported by the literature that ammonia is taken up, and since its concentration rises as pH rises, my default hypothesis is that it is more available at higher pH.

A single-cell view of ammonium assimilation in coral–dinoflagellate symbiosis - PMC

Assimilation of inorganic nitrogen from nutrient-poor tropical seas is an essential challenge for the endosymbiosis between reef-building corals and dinoflagellates. Despite the clear evidence that reef-building corals can use ammonium as inorganic ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Miami Reef]

That’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and the study.

Carbonate and bicarbonate seem to have an interesting relationship with pH. Studies seem to show that corals use bicarbonate directly, so one would assume a lower pH would be better since there’s more of it. However, lower pH makes pumping out the H+ more difficult.

If corals can’t directly use carbonate, is it a double-edged sword between more bicarbonate and more H+?

I’m interested in reading your response to this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and the study.

Carbonate and bicarbonate seem to have an interesting relationship with pH. Studies seem to show that corals use bicarbonate directly, so one would assume a lower pH would be better since there’s more of it. However, lower pH makes pumping out the H+ more difficult.

If corals can’t directly use carbonate, is it a double-edged sword between more bicarbonate and more H+?

I’m interested in reading your response to this.

Yes, although I am not 100% certain that it is bicarbonate they take up. I think some authors may use the word without really making a distinction from carbonate. Distinguishing bicarbonate from carbonate uptake is extremely difficult without knowing the exact molecular transporter involved and studying it outside of a coral.

I address that issue a bit in the intro to this thread:

Alkalinity stability? pH stability? Are they even different?

It is currently the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish. Since I have...

www.reef2reef.com

Rationalizing pH effects on calcification gets more and more complicated the deeper one looks, and hand waving arguments can be made but may not reflect reality at the molecular level.

There are two basic possibilities, and both could possibly make calcification easier at higher pH:

1. Corals take up bicarbonate and then have to pump out H+ against a concentration gradient that makes it want to go back in (the place where calcification occurs is high in pH, making H+ want to go back there). The higher the pH is, the easier that out pumping is (again, super complex but this is the simplistic analysis).

HCO3- ---> CO3-- (deposited) + H+ (pumped out)

The bicarbonate drops some as pH rises (making uptake harder), but not as fast as H+ drops (making H+ excretion easier). Again, a complexity.

2. Corals take up carbonate. The higher the pH is, the more carbonate is present so uptake is easier.

CO3- - ---> CO3-- (deposited)

 

[rishma]

Interesting, I was dosing very low amount of ammonium, my pH is high, and that low dose had a noticeable impact on the corals.

 

[USMA36]

Currently in my 220 reef I am dosing approximately 20ml of vodka a day to keep my nitrates at 10-15. After reading Randy’s article and hearing Sonjay and Mike Paletta talk about increased coral color and encrusting on Reef bums podcast I figured I’d give it a go. I started using Randy’s recipe and dosing 20ml once per day in the morning day. I plan on adding another 20 at night after observing for a month or so. Is there any harm in this when I don’t have low nitrates to begin with? I’m curious to see if ammonia dosing has more of a positive effect than the existing nitrates. Obviously I’m not a chemist, but I have read that (at least anecdotally) corals more readily use the ammonia and that can increase growth, color, and pe. Is this way off? Are there any studies proving or disproving this theory?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Currently in my 220 reef I am dosing approximately 20ml of vodka a day to keep my nitrates at 10-15. After reading Randy’s article and hearing Sonjay and Mike Paletta talk about increased coral color and encrusting on Reef bums podcast I figured I’d give it a go. I started using Randy’s recipe and dosing 20ml once per day in the morning day. I plan on adding another 20 at night after observing for a month or so. Is there any harm in this when I don’t have low nitrates to begin with? I’m curious to see if ammonia dosing has more of a positive effect than the existing nitrates. Obviously I’m not a chemist, but I have read that (at least anecdotally) corals more readily use the ammonia and that can increase growth, color, and pe. Is this way off? Are there any studies proving or disproving this theory?

It is correct that in corals studied, they take up ammonia instead of nitrate when given a choice. Whether giving them what they prefer translates into important differences reefers care about is a much murkier question, but the preponderance of experiences here suggest it may.

 

[rishma]

Take a picture before heading out!

Update: no question the corals lightened back up with brighter colors after about 2 months without ammonia. I noticed right when I walked in. All LPS. Nitrates are low but not zero, maybe 2 ppm. No observable change in health. Everything seems good. I like the brighter colors so I’ll probably not go back to dosing ammonium bicarbonate in this tank unless something changes.

No regrets, it was a great experiment!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Update: no question the corals lightened back up with brighter colors after about 2 months without ammonia. I noticed right when I walked in. All LPS. Nitrates are low but not zero, maybe 2 ppm. No observable change in health. Everything seems good. I like the brighter colors so I’ll probably not go back to dosing ammonium bicarbonate in this tank unless something changes.

No regrets, it was a great experiment!

Sounds reasonable. Do you know how high nitrate got?