DIY Balling Method Recipe

[Ken S]

Thank you!

I think I got time to run to the LFS.

 

[Jason Coy]

Would it be ok to add the AF salt once a day if I am dosing the other parts multiple times a day? I have a 4 head doser and need to dose all 3 parts plus nitrate and phosphate. I was thinking the AF salt would be the best one to do a one-time dose.

I'm using potassium phosphate and Nitrate. Can either of those be added to part a or part b

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would it be ok to add the AF salt once a day if I am dosing the other parts multiple times a day? I have a 4 head doser and need to dose all 3 parts plus nitrate and phosphate. I was thinking the AF salt would be the best one to do a one-time dose.

I'm using potassium phosphate and Nitrate. Can either of those be added to part a or part b

In a system like these, the Part C or AF mineral salt can be added quite infrequently. Once a week is plenty, but daily is also fine. No need to add it more often than that.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I keep meaning to go back through all of this and may have questions.

My goal is to get away from Triton due to cost. I want to make sure I understand how to get this setup for balanced 1:1:1 dosing for Alk/Ca/Mg and A,K C and of that means mixing those in or adding another dosing head or two.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I keep meaning to go back through all of this and may have questions.

My goal is to get away from Triton due to cost. I want to make sure I understand how to get this setup for balanced 1:1:1 dosing for Alk/Ca/Mg and A,K C and of that means mixing those in or adding another dosing head or two.

Folks have found that A and K can be split into the alk and calcium parts, respectively. If you have a magnesium part that is made of mag chloride and sulfate, you can put part C into it. (google search AI gets that last part wrong, IMO).

 

[BeanAnimal]

Maybe this is more appropriate for a separate thread, but I'd rather be corrected than wrong on this. Or maybe I hope to be wrong, because if I am correct, I feel a bit hoodwinked by modern marketing.

If the original Balling method is three parts: Calcium, Alkalinity, and Part C (NaCl-free salt) and the recipe is based on restoring natural seawater ionic balance, then Part C is mostly magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate, with maybe with some other minor traces that also fall out of balance with part A and B.

Per the original instructions, part C was never intended as magnesium supplementation. It is only 50g of NaCl free salt per 2L of stock solution. That is super dilute and looks like just enough to offset the stoichiometric NaCl accumulation form dosing A and B. I don't think there is any misunderstanding there.

Here is what just made my head fall off. If all of that is correct, then anyone dosing magnesium as a combination of magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate doesn't need par C, they are "balling" because their much larger does of Mg already have enough to restore ionic balance, and add Mg.

Why buy part C instead of just doing magnesium at the proper consumption rate, plus a pinch of it makes you feel better. So most systems are "balling" if they are 3 part, even if there is not an explicit "NaCl free" separate component.

This begs a further question that I think maybe only Hans-Werner can answer. Why not just publish the recipe is balanced Alk:Ca:Mg in the first place then? Maybe because he doesn't see magnesium consumption fixed diretly to the alk and calcium consumption?

Is this wrong? Have I lost my marbles?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here is what just made my head fall off. If all of that is correct, then anyone dosing magnesium as a combination of magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate doesn't need par C, they are "balling" because their much larger does of Mg already have enough to restore ionic balance, and add Mg.

Why buy part C instead of just doing magnesium at the proper consumption rate, plus a pinch of it makes you feel better. So most systems are "balling" if they are 3 part, even if there is not an explicit "NaCl free" separate component.

This begs a further question that I think maybe only Hans-Werner can answer. Why not just publish the recipe is balanced Alk:Ca:Mg in the first place then? Maybe because he doesn't see magnesium consumption fixed diretly to the alk and calcium consumption?

Is this wrong? Have I lost my marbles?

It is correct that Part C is “mostly” mag sulfate and chloride. That is why many folks have been successful with my diy using mag chloride and sulfate as the third part.

But there are important other ions in Part C that will get depressed significantly and detrimentally if they are not maintained somehow. Potassium is a big one. Others may include bromide, fluoride, boron, and more. Part C adds and maintains those against the salinity effect.

If I understand you correctly, ESV does what you suggest: essentially put everything in 2 parts instead of 3.

 

[BeanAnimal]

@Hans

It is correct that Part C is “mostly” mag sulfate and chloride. That is why many folks have been successful with my diy using mag chloride and sulfate as the third part.

But there are important other ions in Part C that will get depressed significantly and detrimentally if they are not maintained somehow. Potassium is a big one. Others may include bromide, fluoride, boron, and more. Part C adds and maintains those against the salinity effect.

If I understand you correctly, ESV does what you suggest: essentially put everything in 2 parts instead of 3.

So, am I correct that the key is knowing the potassium and other minor ions in Part C, and assuming that A and K do not cover those?

With a bit of work I could make a three part Alk/Mag/C plus A and K — where C is magnesium sulfate and chloride in sufficient quantity to cover the ionic imbalance and daily consumption. Adding potassium, bromide, fluoride, and boron for better balance. I would assume these minor elements are at the ratio of NSW or does more stoichiometry (ick) needs to be done?

Or easier and more costly. simply, purchase Part C and combine it with DIY balanced magnesium sulfate and chloride, minus whatever magnesium is already present in Part C.

I guess the true question becomes, in your estimation, how important are the minor additions of "bromide, fluoride, boron, and more" to part C.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Hans

So, am I correct that the key is knowing the potassium and other minor ions in Part C, and assuming that A and K do not cover those?

With a bit of work I could make a three part Alk/Mag/C plus A and K — where C is magnesium sulfate and chloride in sufficient quantity to cover the ionic imbalance and daily consumption. Adding potassium, bromide, fluoride, and boron for better balance. I would assume these minor elements are at the ratio of NSW or does more stoichiometry (ick) needs to be done?

Or easier and more costly. simply, purchase Part C and combine it with DIY balanced magnesium sulfate and chloride, minus whatever magnesium is already present in Part C.

I guess the true question becomes, in your estimation, how important are the minor additions of "bromide, fluoride, boron, and more" to part C.

Part C is purely a salinity correction product. It is literally a salt mix without added sodium chloride.

A and K is a consumption offset product.

They fix different problems with different sets of ions and there is no reason the use of one will alter the use of the other. There is no need to be concerned about overlap, and in reality, everything in A and K is in Part C.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Part C is purely a salinity correction product. It is literally a salt mix without added sodium chloride.

A and K is a consumption offset product.

They fix different problems with different sets of ions and there is no reason the use of one will alter the use of the other. There is no need to be concerned about overlap, and in reality, everything in A and K is in Part C.

So in the reverse:

Just balance Alk/Ca/Mag solutions for 1:1:1 and add part A and K and call it a day?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So in the reverse:

Just balance Alk/Ca/Mag solutions for 1:1:1 and add part A and K and call it a day?

That will deplete potassium unless you add part C to the mag part.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Would it be unwise to try to save money and formulate my own part C?

This all all driven my the ridiculous cost of those solution and my laziness to test. Balanced and cheap is what I am looking for. I am starting to remember why I stopped growing SPS a decade or so ago.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would it be unwise to try to save money and formulate my own part C?

This all all driven my the ridiculous cost of those solution and my laziness to test. Balanced and cheap is what I am looking for. I am starting to remember why I stopped growing SPS a decade or so ago.

Probably cost more than buying it unless you scrimp on the number of ingredients. It’s identical to making your own salt mix without adding NaCl. Would you do that?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Probably cost more than buying it unless you scrimp on the number of ingredients. It’s identical to making your own salt mix without adding NaCl. Would you do that?

Not a chance.

 

[jeremie]

Would it be unwise to try to save money and formulate my own part C?

This all all driven my the ridiculous cost of those solution and my laziness to test. Balanced and cheap is what I am looking for. I am starting to remember why I stopped growing SPS a decade or so ago.

I have been using the DIY true two part recipe with additional potassium chloride added to the alk part for about two years on two of my high demand SPS reefs with minimal water changes, and it seems to maintain ionic balance quite well, as far as I can tell from ICP-OES. Some bromine likely comes from the mag flakes I used as the magnesium chloride source, which might also contribute to maintaining ionic balance.

For most elements, the depletion caused by ionic imbalance seems to be insignificant compared to biological uptake and abiotic precipitation, so I don’t think you really need to mix everything in. In my tanks, the consumption I observed is generally much higher than the expected depletion from ionic imbalance.

Personally, I just add some A- & K+ into the mix, and most things fall into line quite well. The only thing that behaves oddly is molybdenum, which always shows up low in one tank, even though both tanks are using the same salt. I suspect it might have something to do with nitrate reduction, because that tank also happens to be the one where I occasionally dose nitrate, whereas I only dose ammonia in the other tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have been using the DIY true two part recipe with additional potassium chloride added to the alk part for about two years on two of my high demand SPS reefs with minimal water changes, and it seems to maintain ionic balance quite well, as far as I can tell from ICP-OES. Some bromine likely comes from the mag flakes I used as the magnesium chloride source, which might also contribute to maintaining ionic balance.

For most elements, the depletion caused by ionic imbalance seems to be insignificant compared to biological uptake and abiotic precipitation, so I don’t think you really need to mix everything in. In my tanks, the consumption I observed is generally much higher than the expected depletion from ionic imbalance.

Personally, I just add some A- & K+ into the mix, and most things fall into line quite well. The only thing that behaves oddly is molybdenum, which always shows up low in one tank, even though both tanks are using the same salt. I suspect it might have something to do with nitrate reduction, because that tank also happens to be the one where I occasionally dose nitrate, whereas I only dose ammonia in the other tank.

That's a reasonable plan, IMO. :)

 

[mook1178]

Do I have to worry about magnesium if I add A and K to the TA and Calcium mixes if I am doing frequent water changes to remove nitrates?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do I have to worry about magnesium if I add A and K to the TA and Calcium mixes if I am doing frequent water changes to remove nitrates?

With no magnesium additions, it will slowly decline with or without water changes, but if the mix starts above where you would worry, it may take a long time to drop to a concerning level.

 

[mook1178]

That makes sense as a water change can never get it 100% back to normal. the decline is just slower, so I would have to add it less often. I am starting an ICP regime as I get trace elements back in line. So I can monitor my Mg dosing.

Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That makes sense as a water change can never get it 100% back to normal. the decline is just slower, so I would have to add it less often. I am starting an ICP regime as I get trace elements back in line. So I can monitor my Mg dosing.

Thanks!

That sounds good. :)