Do fish have immunity?

[HuduVudu]

I hope I'm not out of line here. Can we discuss "immunity" as it relates to less mature systems. Yep, I think Paulb could put sick fish in his tank without issue. As we discuss "immunity" and stress, I wish to emphasize to new hobbyists that the stress that decreases "immunity" and leads to outbreaks is very hard to avoid in new systems - regardless of what food you are feeding.

Here is a true story.

I was stationed in the Philippines on a "reef". I was able to snorkel and dive around this for my two and half years there. There was a guy, his name was Dave. We called him Drippy Dave. He had a 20 tall salt water aquarium in our over air conditioned freezing cold cinder block barracks. His filtration consisted of a sponge bubble filter like the kind you would find on a gold fish tank. He fed TetraMin fresh water flakes and had 20 or so smaller fish. There were no decorations in this tank and it had a bare bottom. Dave, it seemed had other priorities to spend his money on. He would gather fish from the fisherman's nets that he paid them 5 pesos (25 cents in 88) to do. Sometimes he would decide it would be fun for he and I to try to go and catch fish with my crazy looking slurp gun.

The fish in his tank where healthy and happy. I have never seen fish so energetic and active. Death in his tank was from incompatability, not disease. I kept going to visit every so often to see if he needed to "refresh" the tank. It was so cheap to do so if there was a mass die off it would have been easy. To my constant surprise the fish were always there and always hungry. This changed my view of salt water fish forever.

We go through the pain that we go through with fish because of the supply chain. We have had to adapt and find ways to deal with fish that have been through literally killing stress. Some of us have learned to cope with the absolute trash that is coming through the supply chain. Our ideas may be questionable to some, but their results speak for themselves, whether you agree with their methodalogy or not.

"The man at the top of the mountain didn't just fall there" - Vince Lombardi

 

[atoll]

@ mindme, I hope your naso tang pulled though with whatever its ailment was parasite bacterial or whatever. Maybe it lost it natural immunity was lost in the LFS or wherever you got it from. Stress via poor conditions kept maybe. Did it survive or so succumb?

 

[mindme]

@ mindme, I hope your naso tang pulled though with whatever its ailment was parasite bacterial or whatever. Maybe it lost it natural immunity was lost in the LFS or wherever you got it from. Stress via poor conditions kept maybe. Did it survive or so succumb?

Not sure what you are talking about, maybe mixing me up with someone else?

My naso has never been sick, and while my blue tang will show signs of ich, I've never seen the naso scratch or have a dot of any kind. I assume it has a very thick slim coat, unlike my blue.

If I only had the naso and a few other fish, I might would think my tank didn't have ich.

I haven't had any fish loss due to disease since my tank had velvet 1.5 years ago. Only my sailfin survived.

 

[atoll]

Not sure what you are talking about, maybe mixing me up with someone else?

My naso has never been sick, and while my blue tang will show signs of ich, I've never seen the naso scratch or have a dot of any kind. I assume it has a very thick slim coat, unlike my blue.

If I only had the naso and a few other fish, I might would think my tank didn't have ich.

I haven't had any fish loss due to disease since my tank had velvet 1.5 years ago. Only my sailfin survived.

This one.
Thread 'Velvet or bacterial?' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-or-bacterial.781848/

 

[Paul B]

Mindme, you accuse me of belitting you because I said a 2 1/2 year old tang is like a 2 year old child and yet in almost every paragraph you write you almost blatantly call me a liar and say I have no idea how immunity works.

I don't know you from a hole in the wall and I am sure you are a very good fish keeper.


As I said, instead of arguing every time someone disagrees with me, I wrote a book and I know you won't read it because I have no idea what I am talking about.

I have found that it is much easier to just let go posts I don't agree with rather than try to defend my every word.

I don't go on your threads as I have no reason to. But if I did, I would just either be quiet if I didn't agree with you as I don't believe with many posters. I don't go on every quarantine and medication thread just to argue even though I disagree with them.

Perhaps you should write a book of your practices. Then we can see how successful you are.
Have a great day.

 

[mindme]

This one.
Thread 'Velvet or bacterial?' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-or-bacterial.781848/

Oh, yeah that one didn't make it. In the end, it wasn't velvet but I think my treating it as such caused too much stress etc. Learned many lessons the hard way in the QT process unfortunetly.

 

[mindme]

Mindme, you accuse me of belitting you because I said a 2 1/2 year old tang is like a 2 year old child and yet in almost every paragraph you write you almost blatantly call me a liar and say I have no idea how immunity works.

I left this forum years ago because of the silly bickering. I don't know you from a hole in the wall and I am sure you are a very good fish keeper.

I see this forum hasn't changed to much but it does seem much better in most of the threads.

As I said, instead of arguing every time someone disagrees with me, I wrote a book and I know you won't read it because I have no idea what I am talking about.

I have found that it is much easier to just let go posts I don't agree with rather than try to defend my every word.

I don't go on your threads as I have no reason to. But if I did, I would just either be quiet if I didn't agree with you as I don't believe with many posters. I don't go on every quarantine and medication thread just to argue even though I disagree with them.

Perhaps you should write a book of your practices. Then we can see how successful you are.
Have a great day.

You literally made a post describing that you don't know how immunity works.

You did the same thing with malaria. Claiming that people who were able to live with the parasite were immune to it.

It's not my fault you said false things. I mean things that couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm not going to shut up about it, I don't care what you would do in a thread. You didn't even make this thread, so I'm not even sure why you are trying to claim it as yours to start with. I come here for the discussion and if you don't want people to point out you are passing off false information, then don't pass off false information.

And of course, "buy my book".

As for my own book, how's this for a start:

Tip #1: Start caring about the fish you put in your tank by putting a lid on it, rather than trying to sell books while your fish die on the floor.

 

[ReefGeezer]

We go through the pain that we go through with fish because of the supply chain. We have had to adapt and find ways to deal with fish that have been through literally killing stress. Some of us have learned to cope with the absolute trash that is coming through the supply chain.

I've been doing this a long time and have developed methods to deal with issues caused by the supply chain. For the most part, they don't involve quarantine. Everybody that has been doing this for long has developed some protocol that may or may not include quarantine.

I just want to keep newbies from deducing from these discussions that some sort of natural "immunity" will allow them to plop fish in their new tanks the way some more experienced reefers can do in more mature tanks.

 

[HuduVudu]

@mindme ... why are you so angry?

Seriously.

If you want to contribute then say your peace. If no one wants to interact with what you say then move on. Getting mad won't make them any more interested in what you have to say.

 

[HuduVudu]

I just want to keep newbies from deducing from these discussions that some sort of natural "immunity" will allow them to plop fish in their new tanks the way some more experienced reefers can do in more mature tanks.

The thing is that newbies aren't innocent in all of this. Sadly people including me deduce all kinds of crazy things and try to wish them into reality. I think that any seriouslly interested and discerning person will see the humanity of the posts. A vast majority of people that are here and are new are also very much adult. Adults whether they like it or not are responsible for the decsions and actions. If they make mistakes they suffer no one else. It is therefore incumbent that they discern the information being presented.

Most arguments come from people defending their "way". It isn't rational but it is very human. The good news is that in a public forum all can see. Some points are made both good and bad and as a very popular program says ... "Take what you like and leave the rest".

Also just a note I have and will continue to plop fish in new tanks. I have a very specific set of protocols that I use and it is incumbant on the person who doesn't understand to ask questions. If they go forward and do something on what the think I did then the responsibility is theirs alone.

Paul was preaching about white worms and their benefit. I didn't just run out and pick any white worms and brush my hands together and say done. Nope, I did some agonizingly stupid research to ensure exactly the kind of worms I was looking for and then I asked Paul if I had gotten the right ones. I will suffer if I got the wrong ones not Paul and it is on me to get it right. This is how it works regardless of what people feel about it.

I agree with your previous statements and for me the process of becoming old salt from wet newb is a painful and long process. We hope that we can pass on the lessons we learned because we don't want others to make them but think back ... did you? I didn't.

 

[Mark Gray]

I agree with this part of Bnord's post.

But Ayden, I know you read much of the dribble I post so you know I am totally against quarantine, unless it is a new tank owned by a Noob.

Older tanks (years not months) are hindered by quarantine. That is of course my opinion as I am not the God of fish.

If you get your fish immune like if they survive parasites and are "properly" fed by not relying 100% on store bought food and have the "correct" aquascape where fish can hide naturally so you can't see them and they can't see you.

The fish will remain immune, unless you keep a totally quarantined tank in which case, the fish will never become immune because fish, like us need to be in contact with parasites at least occasionally to remain immune.

That is why we get shots for measles, covid, tetanus etc. We are not normally exposed to those things so we get shots. But if we lived in a place where those diseases were common, we would remain immune "if" we eat correctly, sleep well and don't freeze to death.

I realize I am in the vast minority on these forums, but I also have a very old tank that never been infected by anything and I don't have to quarantine. I also would never medicate because that. especially copper is a poison and not real good for any living creature.

But Ayden, good luck.

I also agree with Paul B: now I am very young compared to Paul. but I started keeping saltwater fish in the 70s. I do not QT never have. I am down to one tank now, and I have introduced Ick into the tank, and I have a powder blue tang. Not sure I will keep this one to much longer he has become extremely aggressive.

Good Luck

 

[mindme]

@mindme ... why are you so angry?

Seriously.

If you want to contribute then say your peace. If no one wants to interact with what you say then move on. Getting mad won't make them any more interested in what you have to say.

I was literally replying to something he posted towards me, so I don't really understand your post honestly.

I'm not angry and I've treated him much nicer than I would any other charlatan.

 

[Paul B]

You seem angry and I know you go on the disease forum, somewhere I have never been. I may not know anything about immunity but my fish never get sick even though you said yours don't either.

Velvet or bacterial?

I have a Naso Tang that has been in QT since Wednesday. He hasn't eaten since I got him. Until today, I saw no symptoms. Other than he seems to be happier with the lights out, and stays at the bottom when they are on. This makes me lean towards velvet. Today he is covered. But...

www.reef2reef.com

Anyway, have a nice day and good luck with your fish.

 

[mindme]

You seem angry and I know you go on the disease forum, somewhere I have never been. I may not know anything about immunity but my fish never get sick even though you said yours don't either.

Velvet or bacterial?

I have a Naso Tang that has been in QT since Wednesday. He hasn't eaten since I got him. Until today, I saw no symptoms. Other than he seems to be happier with the lights out, and stays at the bottom when they are on. This makes me lean towards velvet. Today he is covered. But...

www.reef2reef.com

Anyway, have a nice day and good luck with your fish.

If you are going to go through my post history as a means of trying to attack me, go ahead and read more than a single link so you can find out the full story.

I didn't QT for about 10 years, threw in fish as I got them, never had a single issue. Sometimes a fish might come in with an infection or something and die, but never anything that killed my other fish also. Then like many other people just like me - I lost all my fish to velvet, except for my sailfin who I was luckily able to save with freshwater dips for temporary relief and copper long term.

Check out the date on that thread. That was shortly after the velvet hit and I was in the process of QT'n new fish coming into the system. I haven't lost a fish to disease since then.

What I pointed out is that ich management, which you admitted is the reality of your tank, is something people of all different tank types do. Including myself as despite the QT process, ich still managed to get into my tank. I'm thrilled it's not velvet, but despite my tank being started with dry rock and dry sand, bacteria in a bottle and all that - my fish survive with ich no problem.

This idea that your tank is somehow special is just a bunch of nonsense. Just like you claiming fish that live with parasites are immune to them is total nonsense. The truth is, your fish are infected with ich.

 

[atoll]

You seem angry and I know you go on the disease forum, somewhere I have never been. I may not know anything about immunity but my fish never get sick even though you said yours don't either.

Velvet or bacterial?

I have a Naso Tang that has been in QT since Wednesday. He hasn't eaten since I got him. Until today, I saw no symptoms. Other than he seems to be happier with the lights out, and stays at the bottom when they are on. This makes me lean towards velvet. Today he is covered. But...

www.reef2reef.com

Anyway, have a nice day and good luck with your fish.

He even denied even having that fish even though the thread about it he posted is less than 18months old. Mind playing tricks maybe. I am 72 don't think I would have forgotten if I had that tang with such a problem then posting a thread asking for help.

Quote from mindme "I didn't QT for about 10 years, threw in fish as I got them, never had a single issue"
I don't believe you, not that it matters to you but just stating my position given your loss of memory over your tang. Maybe you just forgot about issues over your first 10 years.
In my first 10 years of saltwater fish I had many issues. In the last 30 years none of those issues at all. I don't expect you to believe me and it would be a shock if you did given your stance in this thread.

 

[Paul B]

Anyway, on to bigger and better things.

 

[mindme]

He even denied even having that fish even though the thread about it he posted is less than 18months old. Mind playing tricks maybe. I am 72 don't think I would have forgotten if I had that tang with such a problem then posting a thread asking for help.

Quote from mindme "I didn't QT for about 10 years, threw in fish as I got them, never had a single issue"
I don't believe you, not that it matters to you but just stating my position given your loss of memory over your tang. Maybe you just forgot about issues over your first 10 years.
In my first 10 years of saltwater fish I had many issues. In the last 30 years none of those issues at all. I don't expect you to believe me and it would be a shock if you did given your stance in this thread.

I didn't deny anything. You brought up that fish without even providing a bit of context on what fish you were talking about. You just asked how my naso was doing. I thought you were talking about my current blonde naso, who has been fine since day 1 and is still currently in my tank.

Can't say the dishonesty from the 2 of you is surprising.

 

[atoll]

I didn't deny anything. You brought up that fish without even providing a bit of context on what fish you were talking about. You just asked how my naso was doing. I thought you were talking about my current blonde naso, who has been fine since day 1 and is still currently in my tank.

Can't say the dishonesty from the 2 of you is surprising.

So you forgot you had a naso less than 18 months ago that had a major problem when I asked I hope it pulled through hmm. I never asked how it was doing at all either. You dont have much of a memory if you forgot the major problem you had with the naso you had that didn't pull through. Amazing that or who's the dishonest one here. Tell you what though you have twisted and turned and IMO been less than honest as above. I know if I had a tang that died like that, that I had posted about less than 18months ago I would remember it for sure. After all you history shows just 2 threads started and you expect people to believe you forgot at least one of them. Yeah right. Anyway if you have anything to add worth adding to support your angry rants then fair enough otherwise let's move on. Hope your present naso fairs better than the one that died.

 

[Paul B]

Paul was preaching about white worms and their benefit. I didn't just run out and pick any white worms and brush my hands together and say done. Nope, I did some agonizingly stupid research to ensure exactly the kind of worms I was looking for and then I asked Paul if I had gotten the right ones

Hudu, that worm Idea came to me at the very beginning of the hobby when all we had was Wardley Flake food.

marine fish consisted of a few damsels and everyone had trouble keeping them alive for very long as even liquid copper wasn't available so I used copper pennies. All fish had spots so we had to keep adjusting how many pennies to put in the water because the longer you left the pennies in, the more copper was dissolved in the water.

At the time I was keeping fresh water fish and I used to give them blackworms, tubifex and earthworms.

I decided to try them on my 7 blue devils and in a few weeks, I discovered the fish had no more spots and I didn't have to use pennies any more.

Those blue devils all had clear fins but after the worms, one of them developed beautiful blue fins while the other 6 fish remained with clear fins. A few more weeks and those fish spawned and kept spawning in a gooseneck barnacle shell.

This is probably 1972 when no one was keeping salt water fish much less spawning them.
Of course there was no computers or cell phones so I couldn't tell anyone about it for many years but I did publish an article in FAMMA magazine.

I posted the pictures of that blue devil on here and his eggs. Photobucket lost the majority of my pictures so I will have to look for the original print or go through my thread on here but it is almost 400 pages long so I am not going to do it now. I know it's in my book someplace.

Oh wait, I went on my old thread and searched for blue devil.

Here he is. This was one of the first salt water fish imported to the US in 1971.

And his eggs

 

[mindme]

So you forgot you had a naso less than 18 months ago that had a major problem when I asked I hope it pulled through hmm. I never asked how it was doing at all either. You dont have much of a memory if you forgot the major problem you had with the naso you had that didn't pull through. Amazing that or who's the dishonest one here. Tell you what though you have twisted and turned and IMO been less than honest as above. I know if I had a tang that died like that, that I had posted about less than 18months ago I would remember it for sure. After all you history shows just 2 threads started and you expect people to believe you forgot at least one of them. Yeah right. Anyway if you have anything to add worth adding to support your angry rants then fair enough otherwise let's move on. Hope your present naso fairs better than the one that died.

What does it matter that I lost a naso in QT 18 months ago in the first place? Especially in the middle of a discussion about fish immunity?

If you can't understand why I would think you were talking about my current fish when you asked about my naso, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

I think the fact the 2 of you are harping on this rather than discussion the topic of fish immunity and that living with parasites is not immunity is telling. You have nothing to support your claims other than going through someones post history, posting about a thread 18 months ago completely out of context, then accusing me of things because I don't remember.

Pathetic.