Do fish have immunity?

[ReefGeezer]

Chief Dan is awesome.

There's something we agree on! is that pic from Outlaw Jose Wales?

 

[atoll]

Correct, I am not the keeper of truth. What I say are not even my ideas or research. I'm just repeating what is essentially high school level biology and science. Pretty much why I am shocked to even be having this conversation to start with.

 

[HuduVudu]

If you provide real information, people will listen.

So you will decide what "real information" is?

Are you the it's sole arbitar?

People will listen or not based on their own needs. You can not change that. They will also determine what information is real or not.

If you make claims and don't provide basic information to support those claims, people will call it out. That is no doubt what you've experienced.

What is basic information?

Will you determine that too. Seems like you are the one that is going to decide what everyone else gets to see or hear.

When you say people ... you mean you, at their behest. Remember that I called you a saviour. I am not saying what is real information or basic information or any other such silliness.

That you feel the need to call out things for other people says more about you than them.

 

[mindme]

Not a wise move at all.

 

[mindme]

There's something we agree on! is that pic from Outlaw Jose Wales?

Yeah, the lone watie is probably my all time favorite movie character.

 

[HuduVudu]

Correct, I am not the keeper of truth.

Indeed, it is good for you to admit that. No let's see if you will act on your belief.

What I say are not even my ideas or research.

Telling.

My tank is based on a mix of my ideas and others. The difference is that I actually put my ideas into practice.

I'm just repeating what is essentially high school level biology and science.

I learned about the Bohr model in high school chemistry. Should I trust the science?

Pretty much why I am shocked to even be having this conversation to start with.

I am not, because people like you are very very sure about what they don't know that they don't know.

 

[mindme]

So you will decide what "real information" is?

Are you the it's sole arbitar?

People will listen or not based on their own needs. You can not change that. They will also determine what information is real or not.


What is basic information?

Will you determine that too. Seems like you are the one that is going to decide what everyone else gets to see or hear.

When you say people ... you mean you, at their behest. Remember that I called you a saviour. I am not saying what is real information or basic information or any other such silliness.

That you feel the need to call out things for other people says more about you than them.

Just make a post saying what you know how to do velvet management in your tank, and tell people how you do it.

If it holds up, you'll be known for a big break through in the hobby.

 

[mindme]

My tank is based on a mix of my ideas and others. The difference is that I actually put my ideas into practice.

Is that not what everyone does?

 

[HuduVudu]

Just make a post saying what you know how to do velvet management in your tank, and tell people how you do it.

I did you can search just as easily as I can. You will also see your brethren, telling me that it won't work.

If it holds up, you'll be known for a big break through in the hobby.

ROFL, you are really really new to all of this. The "hobby" doesn't care about any of that. You can talk about "disease managment" til you are blue in the face and you will only get jeered at.

Case in point.

 

[HuduVudu]

Is that not what everyone does?

They do and and when they fail most don't do anything because they won't accept the information that they need. It makes particularly difficult when people come in and shout down every opinion they don't like. I can gaurantee that the OP isn't reading all of this garbage. Whatever information she gleaned was long ago and she is long gone. It is just a few of us hashing this thing out so R2R will have search engine results.

You really don't understand.

 

[mindme]

I did you can search just as easily as I can. You will also see your brethren, telling me that it won't work.

You say they said it won't work, but I thought you were providing proof that it does work. Were you saying an idea, or are you talking about actual results?

ROFL, you are really really new to all of this. The "hobby" doesn't care about any of that. You can talk about "disease managment" til you are blue in the face and you will only get jeered at.

Case in point.

Not really true. I've been in this hobby for 12+ years now and it looks nothing like it did 12 years ago. If anything, people are way too accepting of snake oil methods.

 

[HuduVudu]

You say they said it won't work, but I thought you were providing proof that it does work.

I am.

Unlike you, I don't think I can make them listen.

Were you saying an idea, or are you talking about actual results?

I am talking about results. Ideas are only as good as their results.

Not really true. I've been in this hobby for 12+ years now and it looks nothing like it did 12 years ago.

I have been in this hobby for 40 years, not much has changed.

If anything, people are way too accepting of snake oil methods.

And this is why I don't believe you. It has been like this since I started.

I tire of this. You just want to be mad and you want to fight. I do too but now I am bored.

Since you need to get the last word in then this will be my last post.

Congrats on killing this thread, you have taken a real bite out of disinformation.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Yeah, the lone watie is probably my all time favorite movie character.

So I'll endeavor to persevere here. I hear you when you say the Velvet is not manageable. I also have to admit that I've skipped over most of the other back and forth. I've been doing this for way too many years. I even owned a rather large retail shop for a few years. I transhipped fish and eventually corals, and a lot of them, back in the day when most retailers where buying stuff from LA or Tampa. Or, in the case of my area... other retailers bought wholesale from me. I've seen and dealt with disease to be sure. So I had customers who would buy Damsels from a rather large holding tank in my shop. Some would come back and say that disease wiped out their tank and blame it on the Damsel I sold them. Others would come back and tell me how great their Damsels from the same tank was doing. All I know was they appeared healthy in my holding tank with copper in it which was standard practice back in the day.

After a few years of talking to customers about it and doing aquarium maintenance of their tanks, I noticed a pattern and became convinced that limiting stress and providing whole fresh food were the big factors in disease prevention. Cryptocaryon Irritans (Velvet) and Oodinium (Ich) were the big hitters back then. I will agree that Velvet, once in outbreak mode, moves much more quickly. I have to disagree that once in a system, but not in active outbreak, that is can't be managed. I believe that it can be kept from reaching outbreak level by providing a low stress environment and feeding whole fresh foods. Well... I'm in Kansas , so fresh as possible food anyway.

I'm not offering any scientific explanation or extrapolating an opinion from data taken from some study of wolves, just solid observations made over a long period.

 

[HuduVudu]

So I'll endeavor to persevere here. I hear you when you say the Velvet is not manageable. I also have to admit that I've skipped over most of the other back and forth. I've been doing this for way too many years. I even owned a rather large retail shop for a few years. I transhipped fish and eventually corals, and a lot of them, back in the day when most retailers where buying stuff from LA or Tampa. Or, in the case of my area... other retailers bought wholesale from me. I've seen and dealt with disease to be sure. So I had customers who would buy Damsels from a rather large holding tank in my shop. Some would come back and say that disease wiped out their tank and blame it on the Damsel I sold them. Others would come back and tell me how great their Damsels from the same tank was doing. All I know was they appeared healthy in my holding tank with copper in it which was standard practice back in the day.

After a few years of talking to customers about it and doing aquarium maintenance of their tanks, I noticed a pattern and became convinced that limiting stress and providing whole fresh food were the big factors in disease prevention. Cryptocaryon Irritans (Velvet) and Oodinium (Ich) were the big hitters back then. I will agree that Velvet, once in outbreak mode, moves much more quickly. I have to disagree that once in a system, but not in active outbreak, that is can't be managed. I believe that it can be kept from reaching outbreak level by providing a low stress environment and feeding whole fresh foods. Well... I'm in Kansas , so fresh as possible food anyway.

I'm not offering any scientific explanation or extrapolating an opinion from data taken from some study of wolves, just solid observations made over a long period.

How long ago did you have your store?

Did you just use copper or did you have all of the other acruments that come with a retail/commercial operation?

I am curious because I have yet to see a retailer that didn't run some sort of medication/disease protocol. My own experience into the retail space shows me why. But could there be another way? Why is it that large holders end up with so many problems. IME most retailers use the fish as a loss leader. Fish loss is a constant drain and I don't understand why the supply chain can't get it under control. It seems that there would be a ton of interest in removing this continous loss.

 

[mindme]

So I'll endeavor to persevere here. I hear you when you say the Velvet is not manageable. I also have to admit that I've skipped over most of the other back and forth. I've been doing this for way too many years. I even owned a rather large retail shop for a few years. I transhipped fish and eventually corals, and a lot of them, back in the day when most retailers where buying stuff from LA or Tampa. Or, in the case of my area... other retailers bought wholesale from me. I've seen and dealt with disease to be sure. So I had customers who would buy Damsels from a rather large holding tank in my shop. Some would come back and say that disease wiped out their tank and blame it on the Damsel I sold them. Others would come back and tell me how great their Damsels from the same tank was doing. All I know was they appeared healthy in my holding tank with copper in it which was standard practice back in the day.

After a few years of talking to customers about it and doing aquarium maintenance of their tanks, I noticed a pattern and became convinced that limiting stress and providing whole fresh food were the big factors in disease prevention. Cryptocaryon Irritans (Velvet) and Oodinium (Ich) were the big hitters back then. I will agree that Velvet, once in outbreak mode, moves much more quickly. I have to disagree that once in a system, but not in active outbreak, that is can't be managed. I believe that it can be kept from reaching outbreak level by providing a low stress environment and feeding whole fresh foods. Well... I'm in Kansas , so fresh as possible food anyway.

I'm not offering any scientific explanation or extrapolating an opinion from data taken from some study of wolves, just solid observations made over a long period.

So you have the wagon the horse pulls. I'm familiar with your area, I spent some years at Ft Riley/Manhattan.

If you kept your fish in copper, that's probably the biggest factor. Anytime the parasite falls off, the copper should kill it before it's eggs can hatch and reattach. Once they all fall off, the copper will kill it, and they should be cured. That's basically QT in a nutshell, except the time in the system varies.

The difference in what you are saying is likely a matter of what part of the cycle the fish happen to be bought in. Basically like a tank transfer method. One person gets one at the right time, another does not. And 90% of the claims were probably user error blaming the fish store, and I'm probably low balling. It's even common on these forums. I think ammonia poisoning is extremely more common that people realize.

Seems more likely to me anyway, but obviously I wasn't there.

I am not discounting limiting stress however. As I mentioned earlier I lost a naso tang to excess stress due to my improper treatment. I have no doubt limiting stress and keeping your fish as healthy as possible will lead to more success and help fish live with disease, but there are limits(velvet). Pretty much agree with everything you said in that regard.

I'm not even a big recommender of QT, especially for beginners. I think for most beginners the odds are they are going to lose more fish. It's really hard, and while velvet sucks it's not the most common thing. I have a 29 gallon with just 2 clownfish in it and some RBTA. Assume they both died tomorrow and I had to replace them, I would not QT the replacements even though it's probably the easiest fish to QT. I didn't QT the 2 fish in there now(they came before velvet though). But everything on my 180g will go through QT. Too many fish, too much risk.

I took objection to people saying their tanks were immune and that the fish who entered it were immune. It's simply not true, it's only a matter of being healthy enough to live in spite of the parasite.

 

[fish farmer]

How long ago did you have your store?

Did you just use copper or did you have all of the other acruments that come with a retail/commercial operation?

I am curious because I have yet to see a retailer that didn't run some sort of medication/disease protocol. My own experience into the retail space shows me why. But could there be another way? Why is it that large holders end up with so many problems. IME most retailers use the fish as a loss leader. Fish loss is a constant drain and I don't understand why the supply chain can't get it under control. It seems that there would be a ton of interest in removing this continous loss.

IMO, the fish are moving through the supply chain too fast. Is anywhere from collection to retail store held for any amount of time to be fattened up, observed, quarantined? I feel that a better fish going to the customer is a win win.

 

[ReefGeezer]

How long ago did you have your store?

Did you just use copper or did you have all of the other acruments that come with a retail/commercial operation?

I am curious because I have yet to see a retailer that didn't run some sort of medication/disease protocol. My own experience into the retail space shows me why. But could there be another way? Why is it that large holders end up with so many problems. IME most retailers use the fish as a loss leader. Fish loss is a constant drain and I don't understand why the supply chain can't get it under control. It seems that there would be a ton of interest in removing this continous loss.

Mid 90's. I had a hybrid system. I had about 20k sq ft of large holding systems with ammonia towers and numerous small systems for retail purposes, large curing bins for live rock, bare bottom berlin method tanks with big DIY venturi skimmers and 5k halides for corals. Fish and corals were pretty profitable back then. I can't imagine it is now. Loss has to be part of the business model. Stress is the cause. It just costs too much to put provisions in place throughout the supply chain to reduce it.

 

[ReefGeezer]

So you have the wagon the horse pulls. I'm familiar with your area, I spent some years at Ft Riley/Manhattan.

If you kept your fish in copper, that's probably the biggest factor. Anytime the parasite falls off, the copper should kill it before it's eggs can hatch and reattach. Once they all fall off, the copper will kill it, and they should be cured. That's basically QT in a nutshell, except the time in the system varies.

The difference in what you are saying is likely a matter of what part of the cycle the fish happen to be bought in. Basically like a tank transfer method. One person gets one at the right time, another does not. And 90% of the claims were probably user error blaming the fish store, and I'm probably low balling. It's even common on these forums. I think ammonia poisoning is extremely more common that people realize.

Seems more likely to me anyway, but obviously I wasn't there.

I am not discounting limiting stress however. As I mentioned earlier I lost a naso tang to excess stress due to my improper treatment. I have no doubt limiting stress and keeping your fish as healthy as possible will lead to more success and help fish live with disease, but there are limits(velvet). Pretty much agree with everything you said in that regard.

I'm not even a big recommender of QT, especially for beginners. I think for most beginners the odds are they are going to lose more fish. It's really hard, and while velvet sucks it's not the most common thing. I have a 29 gallon with just 2 clownfish in it and some RBTA. Assume they both died tomorrow and I had to replace them, I would not QT the replacements even though it's probably the easiest fish to QT. I didn't QT the 2 fish in there now(they came before velvet though). But everything on my 180g will go through QT. Too many fish, too much risk.

I took objection to people saying their tanks were immune and that the fish who entered it were immune. It's simply not true, it's only a matter of being healthy enough to live in spite of the parasite.

Every retailer kept fish in copper back in the day. I can see where some variation from mean could be caused by differing stages of the parasite's life cycle in individual fish. However, I firmly believe the bigger factor was stress and food.

Personally, I don't believe in true immunity to parasitic dinoflagellates like Velvet. However, I do think that when fish are otherwise healthy, provided the right diet, and remain unstressed they can exhibit immune-like characteristics.

I think it is splitting hairs to argue about the word "immunity" though. It gets in the way of getting good information communicated.

 

[HuduVudu]

IMO, the fish are moving through the supply chain too fast. Is anywhere from collection to retail store held for any amount of time to be fattened up, observed, quarantined? I feel that a better fish going to the customer is a win win.

Farmer have you been in the industry?

 

[HuduVudu]

@ReefGeezer did you do hyposalinity? If you did how low? UV? Other medications than copper? How long did you hold on average? What were you losses percentagewise? What did you feed?

I know the LA distributors, I didn't know that there were distrubitors in Tampa. I had the impeccable timing of buying my business on 9/1/2001. Had to drive to LA to get stuff.

Did you ever buy directly from the collectors?

I am trying to get information on the front end of the chain. Did you know or talk to someone at length about the proccess from collector to distributor?

Sorry for the questions. I have nefarious motives.

Just saw the 5k halides for coral ... yuk I do hate that color.

If you want to move this to DM let me know.