Do I Need Floor Supporting?!?

Shadowcat

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Thanks he is 16 year old Hemilayian Persian our baby..

ohh its

Erica - Renee ...
So the tank will be sitting dead center long ways of a Double Floor lam beam . with 2x8 joist hanging on the beam close to one of the peers .. If this is correct I Do believe it will support the tank .. But There is a chance over time there could be sagging at the end of the beam away from the tank... My opinion its a small chance.. Of course this is going off the image in my head from your description of the situation so its always a guess unless I am on site to get a feel of the whole house or have blue prints. ..

For the Record I am not a Engineer . I however have extensive knowledge and training in this area.. I own a Home Remodeling business. By Profession i was in Construction management when i did mostly commercial and high rise construction.. NOW Home Renovations and Repairs. ..

The that is important is there are two factors.. Will The Floor Hold up my tank /// Simple answer to that YES it will. Factor number two will the weight of my tank cause the floor to sag over time... This is the one that gets people into trouble...

Good Luck


OK, think I muddied the waters just a bit with my description. All load bearing walls, beams and piers in this house run east-west............Tank will be situated north-south, parallel to the joists, but perpendicular to the beam, the center of the tank crossing the beam and straddling it...............Hoped that clarified things a bit.......Guess that n/s, e/w stuff was a bit confusing.........I sited the house on the compass points and I tend to think of things that way, but it can be confusing trying to explain that to someone else..............You may not be an engineer, but clearly you have more experience and knowledge in these areas than most people, myself included.........I'm 65, but smart enough to know what I don't know and always appreciate good advice.............Yes, you're right, most any solid floor will hold any "reasonably" sized tank without collapsing, but outright failure isn't the only potential problem.............7 years ago I set a 125 in a different room of the house, against a non load bearing interior wall, perpendicular to the joists and at the end where they rest on the beam below. There is a basement under that tank and I jacked the floor at two points below the tank prior to filling to alleviate some/most of the stress from a 1500 pound tank. everything is still plumb, level and square and the tank is still there...................all my cats were feral, sick, homeless or just strays. They show up at deaths door and I take them in. 5 more buried out back that died of old age.

Thanks for the input.
Ohh ok.. maybe i misread your previous post..

since the tank is straddle the beam with sub floor and hard wood flooring to span the joist , this ties them together. my thinking is you will be fine...
If it were me in this situation . I would run bridging between the floor joist in that area maybe a foot past each end of the tank.. this will further tie those joist together..

My only further question is the type of hangers used from joist to beam.. Usuelly these are way over rated... but not knowing this and knowing the sub floor has a joint between the two lam beams the hangers would be important to hold up your load ..

being pre fab adds a level of unknowns to the equasion as well as NOT all laminated beams have the same density rating and this is where its load capacity comes in..

Short answer is Yes I think you are ok.. WITH Caution .. Its not going to just fall thru the floor or sag over night.. Just watch it any sign of a issue Jump on it...

Sorry i know its not a real answer but best i can honestly give.

Ohh if your tanks stand and support carries the load evenly all the way around the tank to floor you will be better off..

Tell ya what, since you're trying to be helpful, which I much appreciate, I'll crawl back under the house tomorrow with a camera and flashlight, try to get a better look at things and maybe a picture or two...........A couple pictures would probably tell you more and make better sense than my trying to describe it. I won't have the tank for 2-3 months, so if there is something I need to do before things get wet, I have time and tools........thank you.
 

Windy

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Ok so you have a upper frame and a lower frame connected by Vertical members at each of the 4 corners. say this structure is 4 feet long. Along the bottom of the lower frame at the 2 ft point is carrying NONE OF THE LOAD... The load from the upper frame is carried down onto each of the corners of the lower frame. The middle section say again at the 2 feet point is not distributing any of the weight from the upper frame .

But we can agree to disagree
So the lower frame is made of rubber and is unable to resist any of the bow caused by the vertical supports. Also any outside sheathing will transfer even more load to the bottom runner. I am sorry you do not like to be corrected, but you are definitely not an engineer. Can tell that by your nomenclature. Partly true?
 

Erica-Renee

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So the lower frame is made of rubber and is unable to resist any of the bow caused by the vertical supports. Also any outside sheathing will transfer even more load to the bottom runner. I am sorry you do not like to be corrected, but you are definitely not an engineer. Can tell that by your nomenclature. Partly true?



YES The Bottom Frame does consume some of the load ... the further you get away from the support studs or structure the less resistance on it... . It does however help tie the whole structure together, help stability and prevents warping ... You are correct if the structure or BOX as we are talking about is wrapped with suitable sheathing it will carry the load as well (many times sheathing is part of the structure ). For general purpose many would not understand this , So its best to be sure they know most of the weight in a 2x4 built aquarium stand is directly under the vertical supports that are between the top and bottom frames ..

So yes its only partly true .... To tell someone building a stand that the bottom frame where there are no vertical supports are holding up there tank is very misleading.......
You have a good day

Erica Renee .....
 

Windy

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YES The Bottom Frame does consume some of the load ... the further you get away from the support studs or structure the less resistance on it... . It does however help tie the whole structure together, help stability and prevents warping ... You are correct if the structure or BOX as we are talking about is wrapped with suitable sheathing it will carry the load as well (many times sheathing is part of the structure ). For general purpose many would not understand this , So its best to be sure they know most of the weight in a 2x4 built aquarium stand is directly under the vertical supports that are between the top and bottom frames ..

So yes its only partly true .... To tell someone building a stand that the bottom frame where there are no vertical supports are holding up there tank is very misleading.......
You have a good day

Erica Renee .....
Its funny listening to you dance around your error!
Where did you study engineering?
 

kalare

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I agree with Erica Renee...most of the load is concentrated where the vertical members come down to meet the bottom frame. If plywood is added, that's a different story, but if you have a steel stand or other framed stand with only cladding for finish, the load is concentrated under the vertical posts.

Why so confrontational? This should be a thread about helping other people, not disparaging those trying to help and implying wherever they've recieved an engineering degree from is inadequate.
 

Windy

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I agree with Erica Renee...most of the load is concentrated where the vertical members come down to meet the bottom frame. If plywood is added, that's a different story, but if you have a steel stand or other framed stand with only cladding for finish, the load is concentrated under the vertical posts.

Why so confrontational? This should be a thread about helping other people, not disparaging those trying to help and implying wherever they've recieved an engineering degree from is inadequate.
Well we have Erica giving engineering advice and she has made several errors. Someone suggested that spreading the load along the perimeter would reduce spot loading. She says NONE of the load is spread which is incorrect. If you don't know what you are talking about you should not be giving advice on a load bearing situation that can have bad results. I am retired, age 71, with two engineering degrees, and spent 50 years in industry and construction. I have taught both engineering and Computer science as well. So if you want trouble keep listening to those who have no background.
 

kalare

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What she suggests is more than spreading load out on a lower ring. The great major load will be under vertical supports. The only way to properly spread load out would be to do so based on stiffness or to take a 45 degree cone from the edge of the post. The end result is the same. It would be easier and conservative to just consider the posted as bearing the full load.

Regardless. Personal attacks are unnecessary. It's easy enough to give your background and opinion without them.
 

antnida2

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Hi, attached is an image of my subfloor. I don't remember the size of the bearer, the joists running perpendicular to it are 2x6 T&G. Running on top of the joists is 1/4" thick redwood floor laying perpendicular to the joists.

I am planning to put a Redsea reefer 450 (116 gal) tank close one of the wall. It will be perpendicular to the joists but not directly under the bearer. Do I need to add any more supporting piers?

IMAG0530.jpg
 

kalare

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Hi, attached is an image of my subfloor. I don't remember the size of the bearer, the joists running perpendicular to it are 2x6 T&G. Running on top of the joists is 1/4" thick redwood floor laying perpendicular to the joists.

I am planning to put a Redsea reefer 450 (116 gal) tank close one of the wall. It will be perpendicular to the joists but not directly under the bearer. Do I need to add any more supporting piers?

The photo and your description don't seem to match or the photo is of an area where your tank is not going to be. The wall in the photo is parallel to the joists, but you say the tank will be perpendicular? Please clarify, or perhaps provide a sketch of the floor layout and your desired tank location.

What is the span of the joists (from beam to beam)? What is the span of the beams (from pier to pier)? OR...if your placing your tank perpendicular to joists against a wall, what is the span of the joists from wall to next supporting beam? Are your joists actually 2x6 or are they 1.5x5.5?
 

antnida2

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Here are the updated pictures. Piers are 4' apart. Main joists is running N to S (3.5" x 5.5" actual size). Subfloor are 2x6 (1.5"x5.5" actual size) running W to E. Hardwood floor is 1/4" thick running N to S. The length of the tank is also running N to S and placed in between the concrete footing to the garage wall and one of the main joist supported by pier blocks.
subfloor.jpg

20180515_092928.jpg
The photo and your description don't seem to match or the photo is of an area where your tank is not going to be. The wall in the photo is parallel to the joists, but you say the tank will be perpendicular? Please clarify, or perhaps provide a sketch of the floor layout and your desired tank location.

What is the span of the joists (from beam to beam)? What is the span of the beams (from pier to pier)? OR...if your placing your tank perpendicular to joists against a wall, what is the span of the joists from wall to next supporting beam? Are your joists actually 2x6 or are they 1.5x5.5?
 

joeyamador

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Do I Need Floor Supporting?!?

I always ran across differing opinions on floor support when it comes to our hobby. This was written by a structural engineer, but in what I feel, easy to understand language. Thought maybe someone might be interested...

"By: Kevin Bauman

One of the questions that is inevitably asked in every aquarium chat room, newsgroup and bulletin board is "just how large an aquarium can my floor support." Then the answers follow from people who usually use basically correct structural principles to come to often incorrect conclusions. Unfortunately, I then jump into the fray and try to explain in just a few words, what cannot possibly be explained in just a few words. So the result is that no one fully understands my explanation, since it seems contrary to his or her experience. So here is the long winded explanation from some one (me) that has been working as a structural engineer since 1976.
This is what the basic residential wood floor framing layout looks like: Home Tips : Floor & Ceiling Joist Framing

An apartment building might or might not have similar framing.

First a few definitions:

dead load: This is the weight of everything that is permanent such as the floor joists, walls, piping, ductwork, floor tile, etc.

live load: This is the weight of everything that you add to the house or apartment when you move in. Furniture, bookshelves, people, appliances, and of course, your computer and your aquarium(s).

safety factor: Your floor was designed to support loads without collapsing using a "safety factor". The "safety factor" in most structures is usually somewhere between 1.5 and 2.0. So, if I tell you that your floor can "safely" support 1000 pounds then that also means that your floor might theoretically fail when it receives a load of 1500 to 2000 pounds.

Bearing wall: This is a wall in your house or apartment that was designed to support the weight of the floor, wall, ceiling or roof. (Most or all of the concrete or masonry block walls in your basement are bearing walls.)

Partition wall: This is a wall in your home that acts only to separate rooms. While it might be able to support some load, it was not designed as a part of the structural system that carries the weight of your floor or roof down to the foundation.

Floor joists: These are typically 2 x 8's or 2 x 10's at 16 inches on center that support your floor. Each end of the joists are supported by bearing walls or beams.

Subfloor: The sheet of wood (usually plywood) that is nailed to the top of the floor joists to form the floor itself before carpeting or tile etc.

beams: The beams act to support the floor joists. These beams might be constructed of wide-flange steel beams (commonly and incorrectly called an I-beam) or they might be wood triple 2 x 10's, etc.

column: A vertical post that supports the floor beams. In a home this is usually a round hollow pipe.

Your browser does not support the IFRAME tag.​

Wood Floor Design Loads

In the United States the minimum design floor live loads are stipulated in pounds per square foot (psf) by either state or local building codes. An example of typical design live loads might be 200 or 150 psf for a storage warehouse, 100 psf for a public meeting room, 50 psf for an office and 40 psf for a single family residence or apartment building. So, your home should be able to safely support a uniform live load of at least 40 psf. But keep in mind that this design live load is theoretically spread uniformly over the entire floor from wall to wall throughout your entire house. It is not a maximum load on any given area of the floor, it is just a theoretical average load that is used to design the floor for loads that are initially unknown. Some people find this confusing because in reality it is not the floor pressure (in psf) that matters at all, it is the floor load in pounds that really creates the stress in the primary structural framing members.

Myth #1: "According to the building code my house can only support a maximum total load of 40 psf anywhere on the floor."

  • No, the 40 psf is a theoretical uniform design live load over your entire floor. You might have a whole lot more than 40 psf directly under your aquarium, but that's okay because you didn't fill your entire room with aquariums either.

Myth #2: "So then, if I fill my entire room with aquariums that weigh more than 40 psf, my floor will collapse."

  • No it shouldn't. I said that the 40 psf was a MINIMUM design load and I also said that it is a SAFE load. That means that your floor could be (probably is) stronger than the 40 psf minimum in many places, and it also means that the full safety factor is still there to prevent a collapse.

Myth #3: "A structural engineer designed the floor structure in my home for a live load of 40 psf."

  • No, probably not. First of all, your floor was probably never actually custom designed. What builder would ever want to pay a structural engineer to design something this repetitive and simple. All an experienced contractor has to know is that 2 x 8's span ?? ft then he starts using 2 x 10's. See Single Family Residential Construction Guide - Floor Joists (not my site!)
Hmm.... I actually build houses and not all of this is true.. (in regards to what is commonly used) with that being said this does not apply to what is built in the county as they typically don’t require inspections... in the city limits the building codes have gotten stricter knowing people will install things such as aquariums,pool tables etc.. I think best practice is to apply 1 1/8” cdx or advantech plywood prior to installing stand and shimming in place to distribute the weight better would definitely help in any case.. I actually made sure that we added extra I-joist of a larger series and a double lvl under the aquarium area to ensure that the ceiling below would have less than a 1” variance..
 

OriginalUserName

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Wanted to get some input on my new build. The tank will be about 6 inches from an exterior wall. Parallel to the joists and just resting over one. The span in the basement is not very long as the joists run about 8-10 feet where they are supported by a steel IBM (that is central support for the home/stairs/interior load bearing walls. I'm thinking I can get away with just sistering the joists (perhaps 2 on either side and the one that will bare the load). It will be a Reefer 650 with a total system volume of 175gallons.

On a reasonably short span between steel beam and exterior sill plates sistering should provide plenty of extra support right? I could add a jack if I needed to but I will finish the basement at some point and would like to avoid that.
 

Averhoeven

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I was hoping some of you guys could help. I have included pictures below of it all and tried to include pictures of the basement area below it from nearly the same spot. In the long shot from the basement I'm standing in the doorway to the unfinished section which is also the load wall. I asked a contractor we know beforehand and he said "should be fine", but now that there's actual water in it as of last night I'm wigging out!
The tank is a Reefer 750. All said, 200g of water, 140ish lbs of rock, 80lbs of sand. When delivered, the guy said the whole package of the stand, glass, etc weighed 927lbs, but it was pretty extensively packed in an MDF crate, so I would imagine the whole thing probably weighs 750 or so dry? I think that means I'm probably working with a total weight in the 2600-2700lb range.
It is in a room that is 21'x10.5' (using 10ft it means the room should hold 8400lbs if up to 40lb/sqf code right?) along an exterior wall going lengthwise. This is, unfortunately, parallel to the joists. Even in this position, looking from below, it seems as though the tank does or very nearly sits over 3 I-beams. Currently there is essentially no other load in this room, but I'm sure my wife will eventually want additional furniture which is another question.
Is this likely going to be adequate? Should I drain the water in the tank and build a perpendicular wall spanning a few joists underneath where the tank is? Should I not even do it?
Thanks a ton for any help. I'm just nervous hell right now!

20180627_002232.jpg


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20180627_063048.jpg


20180627_063032.jpg


20180627_010708.jpg
 
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OriginalUserName

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I was hoping some of you guys could help. I have included pictures below of it all and tried to include pictures of the basement area below it from nearly the same spot. In the long shot from the basement I'm standing in the doorway to the unfinished section which is also the load wall. I asked a contractor we know beforehand and he said "should be fine", but now that there's actual water in it as of last night I'm wigging out!
The tank is a Reefer 750. All said, 200g of water, 140ish lbs of rock, 80lbs of sand. When delivered, the guy said the whole package of the stand, glass, etc weighed 927lbs, but it was pretty extensively packed in an MDF crate, so I would imagine the whole thing probably weighs 750 or so dry? I think that means I'm probably working with a total weight in the 2600-2700lb range.
It is in a room that is 21'x10.5' (using 10ft it means the room should hold 8400lbs if up to 40lb/sqf code right?) along an exterior wall going lengthwise. This is, unfortunately, parallel to the joists. Even in this position, looking from below, it seems as though the tank does or very nearly sits over 3 I-beams. Currently there is essentially no other load in this room, but I'm sure my wife will eventually want additional furniture which is another question.
Is this likely going to be adequate? Should I drain the water in the tank and build a perpendicular wall spanning a few joists underneath where the tank is? Should I not even do it?
Thanks a ton for any help. I'm just nervous hell right now!

Don't forget that the rock/sand offset quite a bit of water weight. Hopefully the experts chime in but spanning multiple joists, situated on an exterior wall, you are probably ok. IIRC that type of joist is much stronger than a typical 2x6. Are you seeing any defection?
 

Averhoeven

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I don't see any deflection both at the floor level or the beam underneath. My understanding is that those are supposed to be stronger as well. I didn't measure them, but I think they may actually be 12" apart and not 16 as well. That said, I'll measure them when I get home to be sure.
 

Erica-Renee

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I don't see any deflection both at the floor level or the beam underneath. My understanding is that those are supposed to be stronger as well. I didn't measure them, but I think they may actually be 12" apart and not 16 as well. That said, I'll measure them when I get home to be sure.


When i see your images under the tank area first thing that comes to my mind is WET Electrical panel... Not trying to scare you. But i would put some kind of protection for that (JUST IN CASE)

Also those Engineered floor joist are a bit different then traditional joist . They in many cases are Stronger. But often deflect more.. Also i noticed there is NO Bridging.. I know here code says solid blocked or steel bridging is required. This stiffens the floor and joist ,Helps remove bounce in the floor.. also with them being close to that wall has no bearing on how much they hold. I would either build a wall mid point of the tank to help carry the load or use a header and jack post....

This is not going to fail instantly if it fails at all. it will slowly over the years sag if there is a issue....

I keep thinking about that electrical panel thou...
 

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Hey folks much smarter than me. I am about to take delivery of a new 100g tank and trigger 34 sump. I think the spot I picked should be fine to hold about 1200# but then again, I’m not an engineer.

This is the spot
A5D4D95A-20E2-45C5-A6D1-1C2EB85DD0F5.jpeg

The black is the tank which will be 48x24x20 and in the basement underneath (door seen on left) the floor joist run parallel shown in red. The tank should most like have its front edge right on top of the 2nd joist from the wall as it’s 26” from the wall as seen in pic below.
4BEAB1F6-ECFB-4FC5-B7F6-AD0E1FBDD7B6.jpeg

This is another angle to show how it buts up against the stairs
88BA3C93-924D-4D26-9285-58310CAC1A6C.jpeg


Some other views of living room if it helps.

Below you see proposed tank location and across is the from exterior of the house.
26441377-A62A-47C4-A194-96A46839EC74.jpeg

One more view for continuity and possible other location but MUCH less preferred for a variety of reasons. Tank and joist “shown” lol
2DD96E58-2A06-4766-99C3-D6CE4030B49F.jpeg


Tanks...haha for looking and possible calming my nerves a bit.

House built in 1982, house are 10x2’s
 

Averhoeven

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When i see your images under the tank area first thing that comes to my mind is WET Electrical panel... Not trying to scare you. But i would put some kind of protection for that (JUST IN CASE)

Also those Engineered floor joist are a bit different then traditional joist . They in many cases are Stronger. But often deflect more.. Also i noticed there is NO Bridging.. I know here code says solid blocked or steel bridging is required. This stiffens the floor and joist ,Helps remove bounce in the floor.. also with them being close to that wall has no bearing on how much they hold. I would either build a wall mid point of the tank to help carry the load or use a header and jack post....

This is not going to fail instantly if it fails at all. it will slowly over the years sag if there is a issue....

I keep thinking about that electrical panel thou...
Thank you very much for your input. I had thought about that electrical panel as well. I was trying to come up with a good solution, just hadn't yet. Was thinking even a simple slanted "roof" would work.
By bridging do you mean the wood pieces interconnecting the joists? There really aren't any. There is a large beam driving perpendicular to these that had metal U-shaped brackets holding these beams to it positioned at about half the long length of the room. I assume that's too far to be serving any sort of similar purpose.

I really appreciate your input and help. Thank you
 

kalare

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Thank you very much for your input. I had thought about that electrical panel as well. I was trying to come up with a good solution, just hadn't yet. Was thinking even a simple slanted "roof" would work.
By bridging do you mean the wood pieces interconnecting the joists? There really aren't any. There is a large beam driving perpendicular to these that had metal U-shaped brackets holding these beams to it positioned at about half the long length of the room. I assume that's too far to be serving any sort of similar purpose.

I really appreciate your input and help. Thank you

Do not worry about bridging, it is required for trusses, not joists. I-Joists that you have are to be treated as standard joists and would only require blocking for the diaphragm, which you probably don't need or it would be there already. I-Joists are indeed stronger than standard similar sizes wood joists and they deflect less.

Does the floor feel bouncy when you walk on it now that the tank is full? If not, you're probably fine. If you're still worried, let me know the depth of the joists the tank is sitting on, the size of the flange of the joists (the larger top and bottom peices) and the thickness of the web (the plywood piece connecting the flanges, the piece with the stamp on it you took a picture of).

Hey folks much smarter than me. I am about to take delivery of a new 100g tank and trigger 34 sump. I think the spot I picked should be fine to hold about 1200# but then again, I’m not an engineer.

Against that corner where the stairs are? Should be no issue. 120 gallons is not a problem.
 

Clownfishy

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My joists upstairs are 45cm apart. The aquarium I want to put upstairs is 150cm long so the ends will not neatly fit over the joists. Is this a major problem or should I stick to buying an aquarium that the ends sit on a joist (135cm or 180cm)
 

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