Do we restrict who we can sell ocean raised SPS to?

[Brew12]

I'm curious what peoples opinion on this is. I'm not trying to be controversial or imply that we are over harvesting or damaging the oceans. I'm looking at this from the perspective of what is good for hobbyists.

I was looking at my tank today, in particular at a pink lace birdsnest. I purchased it as a 4" diameter colony that was maricultured or wild collected, not sure which. Most of it has died off and I've trimmed off the dead parts until only a small 1" frag remains. It hasn't grown in months. I have 3 other birds nests in my tank. They were tank raised and I purchased them as roughly one inch frags. The smallest of them is now 5" across.

I've also purchased a few other frags that were maricultured and they never do nearly as well as ones I've purchased either from local reefers or from suppliers who tank raised. This makes me wonder... we have such a huge variety of SPS corals that have adapted to living in aquariums. Do we need to continue wild collection in meaningful numbers? Who really benefits from mass maricultured corals? My feeling is that it is the chop shops who get one and pass it at a huge markup. Chop shops can pay almost nothing for a good size colony, chop it into multiple frags, and sell them for $10 a piece at coral shows to new reefers who don't know better. Most of these frags will be dead in 2 months. Wouldn't the hobby be better off if the maricultured frags were only available to expert reef keepers looking for new specimens?

 

[jda]

Wild and mari are different. I don't really have much use for mari stuff - it is common and lots of people have it.

I am OK with wild collecting as long as fragments (these can be 5-6"fragments) are taken from abundant and thriving corals. These corals will quickly fill those spaces back in. The places were most acropora come from are shallow, remote places where the SPS are abundant and quickly fill any void taken by responsible collectors. Divers and tourists can do more damage to SPS reefs than collecting from them can. I am NOT for taking too much. I am constantly amazed at the unique stuff that comes in on wild shipments.

I also have no issue with chop shops are long as they are honest about what they are doing. The took the risk of shipping, took the risk of cutting, waited for them to heal, etc. They have rent and overhead and deserved to get paid. The only thing that I hate is when they claim that a mari piece that they chopped up is a designer/collector named item - these folks can rot.

 

[Brew12]

Wild and mari are different. I don't really have much use for mari stuff - it is common and lots of people have it

I realize they are different, but for the purposes of my question I was thinking of coral taken from the ocean as opposed to tank raised.

The places were most acropora come from are shallow, remote places where the SPS are abundant and quickly fill any void taken by responsible collectors. Divers and tourists can do more damage to SPS reefs than collecting from them can.

And this is why. I don't think wild collection in and of itself is a problem and can be done responsibly.

I also have no issue with chop shops are long as they are honest about what they are doing.

I was at a frag fest that had a chop shop that still irks me to this day. They had purchased a bunch of wild/maricultured colonies, fragged them the morning of the show and sold them for $10 each. They threw out everything that didn't sell at the end of the show. I know a few people who purchased frags from them. None of them lived 2 months. This is my biggest issue. Coral from the ocean are not going to be as user friendly as tank raised specimens. That is why I would like to see them limited to the pro's.

 

[jda]

Mari are put in the ocean to grow and sell. They are fully sustainable and some would even argue they do some good by being hosts that would not otherwise be there. With the current indo ban, I guess that a lot of them are getting large enough to spawn. I do like that usually hardy and sustainable pieces are selected to grow and harvest.

That kind of chopping is not good. I cannot support that. The name of that place needs to get out. People don't want to be the ones to sully a name, but if you are 100% right, then people need to know. Those kind of practices need to get out. We had a local basement-fragger do that here and he did not get invited back and the locals let everybody know - he is long gone.

Nobody should be buying wild acros unless they know what they are doing. They are not impossible, but the need different lighting, flow, patience, etc. and are quite a commitment if you want them to live.

 

[Brew12]

Mari are put in the ocean to grow and sell. They are fully sustainable and some would even argue they do some good by being hosts that would not otherwise be there. With the current indo ban, I guess that a lot of them are getting large enough to spawn. I do like that usually hardy and sustainable pieces are selected to grow and harvest.

I actually think Mariculture is great for the environment. No issues with it at all when it comes to coral.

That kind of chopping is not good. I cannot support that. The name of that place needs to get out.

It did, and they were shut down by the local hobbyists.

Nobody should be buying wild acros unless they know what they are doing. They are not impossible, but the need different lighting, flow, patience, etc. and are quite a commitment if you want them to live.

I completely agree with this. I'm not against wild collection at all. I feel there is a place for it. I just don't feel that wild and maricultured coral should be available to hobbyists for at least a few months after being pulled from the ocean. Not that the coral population can't handle it, but that it leads to unnecessary losses by the people buying these coral. I don't think many people realize just how much easier it is to care for a 1" frag from a local hobbyists tank than a 4" mini-colony from Live Aquaria.

 

[Dlealrious]

I realize they are different, but for the purposes of my question I was thinking of coral taken from the ocean as opposed to tank raised.


And this is why. I don't think wild collection in and of itself is a problem and can be done responsibly.


I was at a frag fest that had a chop shop that still irks me to this day. They had purchased a bunch of wild/maricultured colonies, fragged them the morning of the show and sold them for $10 each. They threw out everything that didn't sell at the end of the show. I know a few people who purchased frags from them. None of them lived 2 months. This is my biggest issue. Coral from the ocean are not going to be as user friendly as tank raised specimens. That is why I would like to see them limited to the pro's.

I disagree with you that tank raised frags are hardier than ones from the ocean. Maybe for people in the US as they are under so much stress by the time you get them but here is OZ its pretty much all we get. I personally have not lost an wild colony even with strong dipping practice. We dont get really any designer frags so we have to buy a wild ones and hope it turns into something amazing in time.

 

[Brew12]

I disagree with you that tank raised frags are hardier than ones from the ocean. Maybe for people in the US as they are under so much stress by the time you get them but here is OZ its pretty much all we get. I personally have not lost an wild colony even with strong dipping practice. We dont get really any designer frags so we have to buy a wild ones and hope it turns into something amazing in time.

Interesting. I hadn't considered the distance from the collection area to be a factor.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I disagree with you that tank raised frags are hardier than ones from the ocean. Maybe for people in the US as they are under so much stress by the time you get them but here is OZ its pretty much all we get. I personally have not lost an wild colony even with strong dipping practice. We dont get really any designer frags so we have to buy a wild ones and hope it turns into something amazing in time.

What parameters do you run your tank on? And your acclimation process? My lfs gets wild and mariculture often. The one acro i bought from them a few weeks ago is. I noticed a large difference with this attempt vs. my last one now that my tank is closer to nsw values than last year. But this is anecdotal as we are talking 2 failed frags and 1 that is growing. Not a large enough sample to make any real judgment.

 

[Dlealrious]

What parameters do you run your tank on? And your acclimation process? My lfs gets wild and mariculture often. The one acro i bought from them a few weeks ago is. I noticed a large difference with this attempt vs. my last one now that my tank is closer to nsw values than last year. But this is anecdotal as we are talking 2 failed frags and 1 that is growing. Not a large enough sample to make any real judgment.

I run around 7.5-7.7 alk cal 420-430ish mag dunno i think 1400 atm.
Though i use my old frag tank as quarantine which doesnt stay very stable, i wait a week before first dip then dip once or twice after that. Normally corals dont look too happy by the time i add to main system but better safe than sorry.

 

[Justfebreezeit]

Jda's view is pretty much in line with how I feel.

I scuba here in Florida (Diving for 20 years(Since I was 10)) and recreational fishing (Anchoring mostly) and diving do a ton of damage.
A lot of people are just reckless with how they dive and fish. My girlfriend recently got certified and they put a lot of emphasis on taking care of the reef, so it surprises me a little that people are so quick to destroy it.

 

[Dlealrious]

I dont acclimate as such, just get bag to same temp and check salinity and ph, if its not way off then drop it in. I used to drip acclimate but since i stopped i have seen any difference personally.

 

[Seamore2001]

It's funny but when I was last hot and heavy in the hobby, in the late 90s / early OOs we had these same conversations, with many of the same pros and cons. But comparing the variety of corals and colors available now compared to then (wild and aquacultured), I'm glad that collection has continued to take place. Some of the corals available now have simply phenomenal colors which just weren't available 20 years ago. As long as collection is carried out responsibly, I don't have a problem with harvesting corals and other aquatic life from the wild, especially when those collected corals are then propagated and disseminated throughout the hobby.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I have a complicated view. If harvesting is done sustainably this type of activity can provide a lot of income to an area that might otherwise engage in practices that are more damaging.

Two examples come to mind. The largest source of manta gills is a very poor part of Indonesia, with outside support, training and cash they were able to create a startup eco tourism industry.

Walt Smith International is of course the more symbolic and best fit example. Of creating a business from live stock harvesting that was from the start planned to be a sustainable project.

 

[jda]

I have a huge soap box about wild corals, but it has been getting harder in the last ten years, or so. Wild stuff used to be landed in the US without harsh dipping and kept under sunlight or Metal Halide most replicating the environment that they were in a few days before. Dipping was up to the end consumer. Now, they are kept in under-lit LED tanks in cali a lot of the times.

When I want wild stuff, I want them transshipped from Indo/Australia to me directly and bypass LA. I land them under 6500k high-PAR metal halides and I don't dip them for months. They have their own tank. Some still die. Most change color. A lot turn out OK, a few duds and a few really nice ones. After a few months when I see some growth, then I dip them. Sometimes, the really nice ones are nothing unique, but sometimes you get a Fox Flame or a Little Red Ferrari that nobody has seen before. Usually, I trade the OK ones for other stuff and people are happy to have them. This can all take like 6-9 months. I have not gotten any in a few years since my tanks are pretty full.

You can get wild stuff from the same places that Live Aquaria does... there are brokers in LA that can get you in touch with them. You will have to buy a big box, dip them and assume all the risk. You can get the same mari pieces that your LFS does... again you need to buy a whole box (20+ pieces?).

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I am OK with wild collecting as long as fragments (these can be 5-6"fragments) are taken from abundant and thriving corals. These corals will quickly fill those spaces back in. The places were most acropora come from are shallow, remote places where the SPS are abundant and quickly fill any void taken by responsible collectors. Divers and tourists can do more damage to SPS reefs than collecting from them can. I am NOT for taking too much. I am constantly amazed at the unique stuff that comes in on wild shipments.

I just returned from Hawaii. While I was there I went to Hanauma Bay to snorkel. If you have never been there, they make everyone watch a 15 minute film about the importance of not damaging the reef (E.g. do not walk on it, etc.). When I finally went into snorkel, every bit of the reef was dead. Just algae covered rocks. I think I saw one small coral colony. There may have been more healthy reef out past the channels where they warn you not to go. People drown there on a regular basis, so I heeded their warning.

After I exited the water and walked back up the hill, I payed attention to the other tourists still in the water. No one was following the guidelines. People walking across the reef, sitting on the reef, etc. It was quite depressing.

Because this is a marine protected area, there were lots of large fish. While carefully floating back to shore, I was startled by a school of Blond Nanso tangs feeding on the algae covered reef in a foot of water. The tangs were huge, like 16" long and were about 10 ft from shore. The water was about as deep as they were tall, and they were completely unafraid of people. I am pretty sure I was more concerned with their scappels than they were of me. It does show that not allowing fishing in areas greatly impacts the fish population for the better.

Dennis

 

[Brew12]

I just returned from Hawaii. While I was there I went to Hanauma Bay to snorkel. If you have never been there, they make everyone watch a 15 minute film about the importance of not damaging the reef (E.g. do not walk on it, etc.). When I finally went into snorkel, every bit of the reef was dead. Just algae covered rocks. I think I saw one small coral colony. There may have been more healthy reef out past the channels where they warn you not to go. People drown there on a regular basis, so I heeded their warning.

After I exited the water and walked back up the hill, I payed attention to the other tourists still in the water. No one was following the guidelines. People walking across the reef, sitting on the reef, etc. It was quite depressing.

Because this is a marine protected area, there were lots of large fish. While carefully floating back to shore, I was startled by a school of Blond Nanso tangs feeding on the algae covered reef in a foot of water. The tangs were huge, like 16" long and were about 10 ft from shore. The water was about as deep as they were tall, and they were completely unafraid of people. I am pretty sure I was more concerned with their scappels than they were of me. It does show that not allowing fishing in areas greatly impacts the fish population for the better.

Dennis

I was at Hanauma Bay over 20 years ago and the reef was pretty much dead. I did go out past the channel and there is a live reef out there. No video or warnings when I was there. Tons of large fish when we were there but I'm not sure that it is impacted by a lack of fishing. Loads of tourists paying to bring fish food out where they were snorkling likely contributed to the fish populations being out of proportion. Not sure if swimming out and opening a bag of fish food to attract them is still common there.
I do agree that it is sad how little respect people have for the coral or for following instruction.

 

[dantimdad]

I think at this point, there is no sense at all in taking any wild coral from the reef.

I am no greenie. But, some things are just senseless and wild collection is one of them.

 

[sfin52]

I deal with softies. I have no idea if they are wild or tank raised

 

[Sierra_Bravo]

Wouldn't the hobby be better off if the maricultured frags were only available to expert reef keepers looking for new specimens?

As a whole I appreciate your concern. Separate from the debate of whether it is a good idea or not, I did want to pose this thought on your last sentence: How would we qualify someone as "expert"? Would it be limited to public aquariums or scientific personal with the correct credentials? Would you need a license that would be regulated by a government agency? How does the conversation change if the vast majority of the experts we have - the private hobbyist or small business owner - are not classified as an expert and excluded?

 

[SeaDweller]

I have a huge soap box about wild corals, but it has been getting harder in the last ten years, or so. Wild stuff used to be landed in the US without harsh dipping and kept under sunlight or Metal Halide most replicating the environment that they were in a few days before. Dipping was up to the end consumer. Now, they are kept in under-lit LED tanks in cali a lot of the times.

When I want wild stuff, I want them transshipped from Indo/Australia to me directly and bypass LA. I land them under 6500k high-PAR metal halides and I don't dip them for months. They have their own tank. Some still die. Most change color. A lot turn out OK, a few duds and a few really nice ones. After a few months when I see some growth, then I dip them. Sometimes, the really nice ones are nothing unique, but sometimes you get a Fox Flame or a Little Red Ferrari that nobody has seen before. Usually, I trade the OK ones for other stuff and people are happy to have them. This can all take like 6-9 months. I have not gotten any in a few years since my tanks are pretty full.

You can get wild stuff from the same places that Live Aquaria does... there are brokers in LA that can get you in touch with them. You will have to buy a big box, dip them and assume all the risk. You can get the same mari pieces that your LFS does... again you need to buy a whole box (20+ pieces?).

Yep. My buddies and I did that, it was like $1-1,5k per box of like 25-30...