Do we restrict who we can sell ocean raised SPS to?

[BestMomEver]

This debate is nothing new, but the phrasing of this question keeps bothering me every time I read it.

For people who care at all about individual liberty, the default position should always be: its permitted unless specifically forbidden. The phrasing of this question implies its only permitted as long as its "needed" (and undoubtedly there will be a committee somewhere making that determination), and is otherwise forbidden.

Show ironclad, incontrovertible proof that wild collection is causing problems for corals, and banning their collection can be discussed. Absent such evidence, of course it should be allowed. The burden of proof is on the people who want the ban, not on the people who say they want to continue the practice.

For the sake of this discussion, I don’t think the legality of collecting is the issue. By law, you can collect in some places and not in others. Your suggestion is akin To responding to the question, “why did you kick the dog?” with, “because I could.” It Might not hurt the dog but might not have helped either. Anyway, that’s a terrible analogy, but you get my point!

 

[jda]

The statement "corals look different in different tanks" by a vendor totally true, but also an indication that they grease their photos. My apologies if this is too cynical. Most hobbyists can help you achieve a "look" for any type of corals, but it mostly comes down to lighting and residual building block levels.

The people who know what coral look like in the wild are the ones who can say what "potential" is. There is a standard for what corals can look like. They can look different and grow different under different methods in captivity as well.

I remembered that Vincent gave that speech. Sorry. This is a really good watch...

 

[Foothill Corals]

That's a great video, I watched several months ago. I liked it when he called the Home Wrecker a boring coral. Though I still want one.

I also hope they can keep collecting so true captive bred "Farmers" can find the next HW.

I really do not see the need for the average Joe to import wild colonies.

 

[BestMomEver]

The statement "corals look different in different tanks" by a vendor totally true, but also an indication that they grease their photos. My apologies if this is too cynical. Most hobbyists can help you achieve a "look" for any type of corals, but it mostly comes down to lighting and residual building block levels.

The people who know what coral look like in the wild are the ones who can say what "potential" is. There is a standard for what corals can look like. They can look different and grow different under different methods in captivity as well.

I remembered that Vincent gave that speech. Sorry. This is a really good watch...

Yes.... but I don’t think even Jason Fox (or other collectors) would tell me that a particular coral in my tank (or any other) had or had not reached its potential. Your statement,”most hobbyists can help you achieve a ‘look’ for any type of corals...” is exactly my point. I bet five dollars if I got a frag from you and put it in my tank, you wouldn’t recognize it after six months or so. Is that coral better or worse in my tank or yours? Which one is closest to its real potential? There is no way to know unless you collected the mother colony, fragged it yourself, and monitored the growth of all the frags. If you did that, it’s possible that you might find some of the daughter frags more appealing than the mother colony. Then, you have to decide which “potential” is greatest (if there ever was such a thing). A coral’s potential is a subjective thing. Like I said before, it’s not measurable. My greatest potential and yours are likely to be two different things.

All that said, if corals can be different from tank to tank, even if they come from the same mother colony, and more importantly, if you can achieve a “look” purposefully and at will, then why is it necessary or beneficial to collect at all? If I can call you up and say, I want a pink coral. You might respond that you don’t currently have a pink one, but that you sold a frag off colony A that, in another tank, turned pink and do I want a frag of that colony even though it’s purple in your tank?

This is similar to flower nurseries. We have long since stopped gathering wild plants because we can propagate anything we want. And we can do the same with most coral. If we can’t propagate them, we can certainly make clones, if you will, when we frag them.

I’m not saying that we should cease gathering coral if we can do it responsibly, but rather wondering if it’s necessary. As I alluded to in another post, do we do it “cause we can?” When we can get nearly everything we want tank raised and can alter much of it with our husbandry, what’s the point of getting in the ocean to collect? Maybe our money would be better spent on study and conservation.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

We need wild collecting and also mariculture in this hobby! Without it and the new stuff it brings in the hobby would change way too much and become something totally different. New stuff keeps vendors open and profiting and gives older hobbiests something to look forward to. Of course we can cultivate our own supply of corals but this would not keep me interested in the hobby. I am sure many others feel the same way. If things stop coming overseas we can’t rely on grafts and variants over time, these will not happen fast, defiantly not fast enough to keep people happy who want new corals.
10+ years ago the stuff that was coming in was nothing like what we can get now, and the hobby will continue to supply new amazing pieces, with each year stuff getting better and better as the collectors get new areas to collect from.
And I agree with jda, each coral has its true potential of what it will look like and grow like. Given the optimal situation coral “a” should be this color and have this branching pattern.
People in the USA don’t go for Mari and wild stuff often because it’s got a bad rap from a lot of people who don’t know how to choose healthy specimens. People who can’t or won’t buy a box of wild or Mari stuff don’t know what they are missing, I can’t wait to see what stuff looks like when figi and Indo start again. I heard Optimism from the islands too so hopefully things start moving again this summer!

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Bestmomever, I get what your saying but people who collect wild and Mari corals know what each species should look like and what colors they come in and which shade or hue of those colors it should be. This is how we pick healthy specimens for our tanks. If a corals has changed color from this, then I would say it’s not at its potential. Just because someone is not familiar with what color a coral should be at its best, doesn’t mean it doesn't mean it’s potential is subjective. It’s potential is what it would look like at a best given spot in the ocean.

 

[29bonsaireef]

Imo, a coral is at it's full potential when growing on the reef. For example, a single colony of acropora could be collected off the reef. Then that colony is divided into 5 smaller colonies. Then, those 5 smaller colonies are shipped to say US/CA. These 5 colonies are then bought by 5 different businesses. Grown in 5 different systems, and there may be variations in those 5 colonies now due to different lighting, params. Now they are all sold as 5 different corals, but you buy those 5 different corals, place them in your tank they will all become the same coral again. This is what I mean by "max potential". I've spent a lot of time viewing and collecting wild acropora, and I can say there are color standards for species. Of course there is the rare morphs, and that is, at least to me what makes this hobby exciting.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Me too, even just species that aren’t seen often make me excited. That would all go away if collection stoped, which I don’t think it will.
The tanks that make me excited are the ones that grow acropora that look like they are still on the reef. All this blue light, filter picture stuff does nothing for me. The real challenge is making acropora look natural, in its growth form and color representation. It’s to easy to toss a nice tenuis into a blue tank and take a picture that makes it look multicolored. The real experts are the guys keeping natural coloration and thick tight growth imo. That’s the stuff that makes me stay in the hobby.
People say there is nothing nice that’s maricultured but some sites do change their stock often enough to sometimes get something really cool, even though they have a lot of it, it may get pushed out for something else and not be seen again. All depends on where it’s from really.
Walt smith has explained and demonstrated the benifits of wild collection and mariculture in the areas it’s practiced and they are large, I would say it’s the same for the hobby, it’s a big deal. Just look on the big sites now, they are nothing like they were a few years ago. Almost no nice stuff out there besides frags of high dollar older stuff or stuff that’s been held back and grown out for sale. I am sure there is still some stuff out there that’s one of a kind stuff but probably in tanks that have owners who don’t participate in the hobby stuff, if the wild collection stopped these corals would be the last of the new corals. Illegal collection would probably eventually become a big deal to people who sell the nice new corals, if I had to guess.
I wish reefers in other countries could try and show People in the USA that don’t believe wild and Mari stuff can be great and beautiful, the truth about it. Some areas that’s all people can get to keep in their tanks, they have no issues, they just know how to keep them. The learning curve has not be broken by a lot of Americans, even though it can be tougher here like said before, because of the long travel to get here.

 

[Brew12]

Not sure how you're defining a puppy mill in your counter example. But I'd be in favor of common sense regulations on dog breeding operations to minimize chances of animal abuse. Population risks arent the only reason to outlaw something.

This is a very anti-liberty minded perspective.

You still need to provide a justification for banning something beyond the fact that there may no longer be a "need" for it. No one wants to live in that world, where the only things allowed are things you can prove a need for.

Why should I justify banning something that I've never implied should be banned? Again.. you never actually read my post that you are responding too.

Prove collection of wild corals for the aquarium trade is causing damage to their populations and there can be discussion of increased regulation. The burden of proof is on the person who wants to outlaw it, not the ones who want to continue it.

Again, if you had read my post, you would realize that I have absolutely no concerns that the hobby is causing damage to coral populations. That isn't the issue I was looking to discuss.

 

[Brew12]

I am speaking most about acropora here since this is the SPS forum...

I purposely made this about SPS. I don't feel that LPS and soft corals have nearly the same issues with adaption to tank life that SPS have. I don't feel hobbyists are wronged by getting LPS and soft corals directly from the ocean.

The real issue is that nearly nobody in the hobby, or on this board, has such equipment, yet everybody thinks that they do. How many people would get mad because they got rejected for having LED or T5 lights... or even low wattage MH? Hobby quality controller and probe would probably get you discounted. Systems under 500-1000 gallons probably would be deemed unstable. Wavebox or surge flow would be best. Standby generators with auto switches.

To get a permit, you would have to do what is best for the coral, period. The hobbyist wishes would not matter. The typical "X will grow coral just fine" paradigm will not fly and the attitude of "Y is the BEST for the coral" will have to prevail.

This would not be very popular for most hobbyists. Just the light requirements alone would astonish hobbyists, but any expert whom might be on a deciding committee has seen what wild acros can do under the sun or even 1000w daylight MH with 1000-1500 PAR. They know that the corals that people keep under most hobby type lightings were the outliers that survived the many, many deaths of wild collected stuff where their needs are not met and that the 300-350 PAR from CoralLab or BRS videos will not work for most wild acropora.

This is exactly the discussion I feel we should be having. Most hobbyists aren't equipped to handle acropora collected from the ocean, especially newer hobbyists. But, these tend to be cheaper. So, I feel we are setting up hobbyists for failure by making the most accessible SPS to them the ones most likely to fail in their systems. It's not that the collection harms the reef, it is that it harms the hobbyist.

 

[Brew12]

Mariculture and wild collected are two different things .

They are, but they aren't. They are both grown in the ocean and have many of the same issues adapting to aquariums.

 

[jda]

This is exactly the discussion I feel we should be having.

I agree. Be careful having that discussion. You have no-doubt seen me post a bunch of times that "just fine" is not good enough and that we should shoot for the best possible living environment for our corals. I get called a dinosaur, biased, etc. This is not an easy discussion to have with people on a message board who are mostly front-running where the masses have neither the breath or depth of experience to engage in such a discussion.

Most good mari places choose species that do very well out of the box. Shortcakes, stags, etc. Some of the wild corals are complete unknowns. The mari pieces that come in on the little bases have very high percentage survival rates if handled even competently. Even the best wild corals are probably 50% with competent people and 75-80% with the best.

 

[Brew12]

The mari pieces that come in on the little bases have very high percentage survival rates if handled even competently. Even the best wild corals are probably 50% with competent people and 75-80% with the best.

I wonder how many people new to the hobby know this? Would that new reefer buy a 4" wild coral if they knew their chance at success was less than 50%? How many hobbyists have given up after killing one wild coral after another who may have had success with tank raised corals? Should we (as a hobby in general, not you specifically) be doing more to let new hobbyists know that their best chance at success lies in tank raised coral?

 

[jda]

I think that most new people to the hobby would have about a 1% chance at success with a wild colony. You cannot tell a lot of them this since their equipment list was OK'd by some fanboys (or the LFS) and they saw one person do what ended up being a statistical outlier. They make suspect choices and come to seek advice when everything starts to go badly.

There are a lot of smart people who come and ask and they get recommendations to look at ORA SPS, or the like, that have long track records even in new tanks. These people choose well and do well.

To answer your question... I don't know how many people truly know. The advice is usually pretty good... the following of it sometimes is not. It is a good thing that wild colonies are not any cheaper or else more of them would probably die.

 

[29bonsaireef]

You cannot tell a lot of them this since their equipment list was OK'd by some fanboys (or the LFS) and they saw one person do what ended up being a statistical outlier

This, IMO, is the main issue these days.

10-15 years ago, myself, and anyone I knew locally in the hobby kept strictly wild, or mariculture. That is all the LFS had for acros. There was never really an issue or high death rate with these. Everyone used liverock, had MH or T5's (a few had Solatubes), abided by the coralline policy, dripped kalk, and most of us stuck with frequent NSW WC. That was pretty much it, nothing too intricate. It's hard to explain to new reefers proper techniques for these corals, because there are already too many advocates preaching the wrong methods nowadays. It's sad, but those who are patient, and want to learn the hobby, and do their homework, will have success.

 

[Irish Mortal]

I think we, as hobbyists, need to promote the idea that newbies should stock their tanks with aquacultured animals, both corals and fish. It seems that the majority of fatalities are going to happen in that group. If we had the mentality that only experienced reefers should attempt to keep wild collected animals, it would go a long way toward greatly improving survivability of the animals collected for our hobby. It can't really be regulated effectively, it needs to be more of an attitude among reefers.

 

[Irish Mortal]

I think we, as hobbyists, need to promote the idea that newbies should stock their tanks with aquacultured animals, both corals and fish. It seems that the majority of fatalities are going to happen in that group. If we had the mentality that only experienced reefers should attempt to keep wild collected animals, it would go a long way toward greatly improving survivability of the animals collected for our hobby. It can't really be regulated effectively, it needs to be more of an attitude among reefers.

 

[Reefbuds]

Wild gathered and maricultured are much different. Maricultured is basically aquaculture just in ocean farms. Neither are directly from natural reefs and both sustain the hobby without impacting natural reef systems.

 

[thepubenator]

this is my tank which all but 2 pieces are wild acro. IMO Its no harder to keep than "tank hardened frags"

 

[alton]

I am so fortunate to have Farmer Ty an hour away if I need a new coral. Wild collected coral needs to continue, not for us but for those who need the money to feed their family.

 

[S-t-r-e-t-c-h]

I remembered that Vincent gave that speech. Sorry. This is a really good watch...

I was finally able to watch this last night and it is a really, really excellent talk. A lot of what he's describing is essentially coral domestication. Thanks for posting...