Do we restrict who we can sell ocean raised SPS to?

[GlassMunky]

I was at a frag fest that had a chop shop that still irks me to this day. They had purchased a bunch of wild/maricultured colonies, fragged them the morning of the show and sold them for $10 each. They threw out everything that didn't sell at the end of the show. I know a few people who purchased frags from them. None of them lived 2 months. This is my biggest issue. Coral from the ocean are not going to be as user friendly as tank raised specimens. That is why I would like to see them limited to the pro's.

So then this would bring up the question of "what constitutes a "pro"? who says if you are or if you arent? that definition would be dependant on who you asked so you cant really put labels like that on things and only let certain people buy things.

 

[jda]

Most wild aussie stuff comes from close to the photo below. Fragments are taken a low tide out of the water or wading in waist deep stuff. There are sandy channels that you can use to access this stuff and do no damage. Scuba is not allowed, but you can walk or wade. The collectors that we know said that if they take a 5-6" fragment out of one of these acropora, it is grown back in a few weeks. They are pros and are like professionals pruning grape vines in Italy - I wonder if they sing to them. They keep them in shallow pools with pumped in saltwater and sunlight. Sometimes they sit there for a while until they heal over. If you want the best results, you need to land them in this way and slowly move them over. Divers Den used to be a great place to cherry pick a few wild colonies every now and then, but ever since they landed the corals under the Radions instead of the MH, they have struggled.

Mari are different. They are chosen as being well-suited for aquarium life and can do pretty well under a myriad of conditions and are much safer. They are also more vanilla in choice.

 

[jda]

Nobody wants anybody classified as anything... pro or otherwise. There are very few people whom would classify on this board and many people would get really mad. No DC pumps, hobby-grade aquarium controllers, homes without high-rated backup power capable of going for weeks, etc. If we consider a public aquarium to be "pros" then none of them would use much that they typical hobbyists would. Pro does what is best for the animal and not themselves and will bear any cost to do so. You might need a 10 year track record of no crashes and minimal losses. There was some talk about some people "hosting" rare corals or species that were in trouble "just in case." It went nowhere when they decided that they could not control the distribution past the first level, but it was an interesting discussion where they were talking 500-1000g systems, daylight MH or solar tubes only, etc.

 

[jda]

I mostly think that these guys are clowns and just schils for their advertisers, but these photos are cool.

Shows the mari stuff that is just sitting in the ocean with the indo ban on. Some of these are 10-12 inches across. Even if they allow shipping right now, it would take a long time to get these trimmed, remounted and healed so that they could be shipped.
https://reefbuilders.com/2019/02/09/indo-ban-corals-farm-growing-nicely/

 

[DarkSky]

I think if wild collection can be done in a sustainable way, we should continue to do it. While there is a lot of variety of aquacultured SPS, it is fun to bring in new colonies to see how they do/change in an aquarium.

 

[hart24601]

I would be in favor of mari being sold directly to hobbyists and wilds being available to businesses only for aquaculture. Think Jason Fox/WWC/ORA type of thing. I just don't get having some strain of coral because no one else does just so you can impress your reefing friends. Seems ridiculous to me.

 

[29bonsaireef]

I'll throw in my input. After being a collector and working with many wholesalers, IMO, the collection of corals for the trade has not put the smallest dent in the overall populations. The numbers aren't even comparable to the amount of corals damaged or killed by boats, anchors, fishing, novice divers, run-off (pollution). Problem is the wrong people are in charge.

In the hobby it all comes down to simple common sense, know what you can care for before you buy. 5 mins of research on the web will tell you Maris, and wilds, are not for the beginner hobbyist. They aren't coming from one tank to the next, they are not a throw in your tank and watch it grow coral.. They're not used to being blasted under blue spectrum or point-source lighting. They're not used to crazy high alk, or low flow environments. They need time to transition to tank life, and in conditions similar to NSW, flow, and lighting.

If they only allowed only "certain" individuals or businesses to get new wild corals, that puts the entire market in their hands. We've all seen where WWC, JF, CB and the like have taken this hobby.. don't think that would be a good idea. JMO

 

[reefwiser]

I think we are seeing the end of wild collection of corals anyway with out any thought to the Aquarium hobby at all.
The hobby can not grow enough corals to sustain itself. An new hobbyist will not start a aquarium with SPS corals as there is too much loss for them to be successful.

 

[jda]

If anybody wants to advocate for captive grown only, just know that without any competition, that were cannot be any complaining if corals get 10x higher than they are now. Wild collecting keeps captive prices down with competition. Without them, they would be $999 for a Flame Angelfish like the captive bred folks want.

 

[HB AL]

I'm gonna keep it simple, wild coral collection should continue as long as it's not some endangered species. Maricultured have there place and should continue too. Let's not become extremists where nothing should be removed from the ocean.

 

[EMeyer]

This debate is nothing new, but the phrasing of this question keeps bothering me every time I read it.

For people who care at all about individual liberty, the default position should always be: its permitted unless specifically forbidden. The phrasing of this question implies its only permitted as long as its "needed" (and undoubtedly there will be a committee somewhere making that determination), and is otherwise forbidden.

Show ironclad, incontrovertible proof that wild collection is causing problems for corals, and banning their collection can be discussed. Absent such evidence, of course it should be allowed. The burden of proof is on the people who want the ban, not on the people who say they want to continue the practice.

 

[BestMomEver]

My experience..... I have purchased corals in the past that, when put in my tank, change color or growth form. Every tank is different and coral, like any other creature, can adapt to changing circumstances. Example, I purchased a no name stylophora a while back ago. It was a dull purple-ish color when I brought it home. Today it resembles Tyree Rainbow Stylophora. Different light, different chemistry, different water movement.

That being the case, named (fancy) corals can truly look like anything but the coral you purchased after being in a different environment for a while.

So, if we can make (even if unintentionally) our corals change shape or color, then what is the point of continuing to collect corals that appear one way or the other. Odds are, we already have something on the market that is similar or can become similar, depending on the tank it’s raised in.

I think we have enough. Responsible collecting is great. Unfortunately, not everyone is responsible. Over time, we will help destroy what few reefs we have left. Mariculture is great and sustainable but I’m not sure we even need that. We “mariculture” every frag we trim out of our personal tanks to sell or trade for others.

For the most part, we as hobbyists, are partly responsible for the state of the reefs. We want something new or different or hard to get. I shutter to think how many millions of fish and coral we have inadvertently killed in a quest to have a piece of the ocean in our homes. I am as guilty in this as anyone else. Still, I would love to have a tank with nothing but tank raised fish. I always buy tank raised if given the opportunity. Unfortunately, we are only just beginning to captive breed on a large scale, so I’ll have to wait a bit until the fish I want become available.

 

[29bonsaireef]

So, if we can make (even if unintentionally) our corals change shape or color, then what is the point of continuing to collect corals that appear one way or the other. Odds are, we already have something on the market that is similar or can become similar, depending on the tank it’s raised in.

This all comes down to, are you giving the coral the right conditions for it to thrive? Acropora, SPS, will always have its max potential. Under ideal conditions, the coral will color up to that potential. Anything below ideal the coral will not show this. Nutrients, and lighting can alter a corals colors, but once in its ideal environment the colors are what they are.

As long as there are quotas in place, and they are regulated. I see no real threat to reefs from fragment collecting. Just like pruning a plant, cutting the corals, if done correctly can actually be beneficial. For centuries, storms have battered reefs around the world to their bare base, and they continue to thrive. This hobby and the corals brought into it keep people interested, and it helps bring awareness and understanding of corals and reefs in general, to people who may never come close to a living reef.

 

[Brew12]

Nobody wants anybody classified as anything... pro or otherwise. There are very few people whom would classify on this board and many people would get really mad. No DC pumps, hobby-grade aquarium controllers, homes without high-rated backup power capable of going for weeks, etc. If we consider a public aquarium to be "pros" then none of them would use much that they typical hobbyists would.

I rarely worry about making people mad, so I'll go ahead and offer a classification. I would suggest a permitting system. To get a permit, you would need to provide a written procedure on how you intend to acclimate the maricultured or wild harvested SPS to adapt to aquarium life. Then an inspection to ensure that the person applying for the permit has the appropriate equipment to carry our that procedure.

This debate is nothing new, but the phrasing of this question keeps bothering me every time I read it.

For people who care at all about individual liberty, the default position should always be: its permitted unless specifically forbidden. The phrasing of this question implies its only permitted as long as its "needed" (and undoubtedly there will be a committee somewhere making that determination), and is otherwise forbidden.

Show ironclad, incontrovertible proof that wild collection is causing problems for corals, and banning their collection can be discussed. Absent such evidence, of course it should be allowed. The burden of proof is on the people who want the ban, not on the people who say they want to continue the practice.

I should probably ignore your comment since you clearly didn't read what I wrote. I do find your attitude extremely disturbing however. Would you support a puppy mill operation because you can't prove it causes harm to dog populations? While I support individual liberty, most reasonable people agree there should be limitations. We don't need to excuse inhumane treatment of dogs which are then sold in poor condition to people wanting pets.

Now, if you had read what I posted, I am not at all suggesting that wild collection is causing problems for corals. In fact, this was my first statement in my post.

I'm curious what peoples opinion on this is. I'm not trying to be controversial or imply that we are over harvesting or damaging the oceans. I'm looking at this from the perspective of what is good for hobbyists.

No where did I say we should ban or limit wild collection. So next time, before go off on your "I should be able to kill whatever I want because of individual liberty" tangent, I would suggest actually reading what it is you are responding to.

I'll throw in my input. After being a collector and working with many wholesalers, IMO, the collection of corals for the trade has not put the smallest dent in the overall populations. The numbers aren't even comparable to the amount of corals damaged or killed by boats, anchors, fishing, novice divers, run-off (pollution).

Completely agree with this. A single improperly placed anchor will do more damage to a reef than a year worth of responsible collection by an individual. A careless commercial drag net will do more damage to a reef in 24 hours than the entire hobby has done in 40 years.

 

[jda]

I rarely worry about making people mad, so I'll go ahead and offer a classification. I would suggest a permitting system. To get a permit, you would need to provide a written procedure on how you intend to acclimate the maricultured or wild harvested SPS to adapt to aquarium life. Then an inspection to ensure that the person applying for the permit has the appropriate equipment to carry our that procedure.

I am speaking most about acropora here since this is the SPS forum...

The real issue is that nearly nobody in the hobby, or on this board, has such equipment, yet everybody thinks that they do. How many people would get mad because they got rejected for having LED or T5 lights... or even low wattage MH? Hobby quality controller and probe would probably get you discounted. Systems under 500-1000 gallons probably would be deemed unstable. Wavebox or surge flow would be best. Standby generators with auto switches.

To get a permit, you would have to do what is best for the coral, period. The hobbyist wishes would not matter. The typical "X will grow coral just fine" paradigm will not fly and the attitude of "Y is the BEST for the coral" will have to prevail.

This would not be very popular for most hobbyists. Just the light requirements alone would astonish hobbyists, but any expert whom might be on a deciding committee has seen what wild acros can do under the sun or even 1000w daylight MH with 1000-1500 PAR. They know that the corals that people keep under most hobby type lightings were the outliers that survived the many, many deaths of wild collected stuff where their needs are not met and that the 300-350 PAR from CoralLab or BRS videos will not work for most wild acropora.

There was an awesome presentation at MACNA about this, but I forgot who gave it. He had a lot of awesome photos of wild vs captive corals and also a thick accent. My apologies for blanking on this one...

 

[RCS82]

If anybody wants to advocate for captive grown only, just know that without any competition, that were cannot be any complaining if corals get 10x higher than they are now. Wild collecting keeps captive prices down with competition. Without them, they would be $999 for a Flame Angelfish like the captive bred folks want.

I see your point and always listen to what you have to say but on the other hand, you can get a SSC frag from almost anywhere but a captive breed flame angel I just can't grab from a buddy when wanted. Who knows though, if all collection was stopped would a SSC frag become a 500 dollar frag? In the end I think we can continue to collect from the wild responsibly without a problem.

 

[EMeyer]

I should probably ignore your comment since you clearly didn't read what I wrote. I do find your attitude extremely disturbing however. Would you support a puppy mill operation because you can't prove it causes harm to dog populations? While I support individual liberty, most reasonable people agree there should be limitations. We don't need to excuse inhumane treatment of dogs which are then sold in poor condition to people wanting pets.

Not sure how you're defining a puppy mill in your counter example. But I'd be in favor of common sense regulations on dog breeding operations to minimize chances of animal abuse. Population risks arent the only reason to outlaw something.

You still need to provide a justification for banning something beyond the fact that there may no longer be a "need" for it. No one wants to live in that world, where the only things allowed are things you can prove a need for.

Prove collection of wild corals for the aquarium trade is causing damage to their populations and there can be discussion of increased regulation. The burden of proof is on the person who wants to outlaw it, not the ones who want to continue it.

 

[Chas J]

Mariculture and wild collected are two different things .

 

[Gareth elliott]

Not sure if this was touched on.

There might be a drop in quality associated with no new corals.

Admittedly i am not in the coral business but a quick glance at
Vivids(1)website there is a large price discrepancy between new released corals and ones from a few years ago. How much of these vendors profits come from being able to market these corals at these prices?
In several years if all current corals are the only ones marketed will they still be able to offer the same quality of service; when all of the corals range from (2)$30-$80?
Will we still have the amount of healthy competition in the midsize operations?
I do shop around myself i do not have corals from a single vendor in my tank.

(1) randomly chosen as i had glanced through their large offerings last night.
(2) the average price i pay for an acro frag that is not a new release. Others may have a significantly different experience based on the corals they purchase.

 

[BestMomEver]

This all comes down to, are you giving the coral the right conditions for it to thrive? Acropora, SPS, will always have its max potential. Under ideal conditions, the coral will color up to that potential. Anything below ideal the coral will not show this. Nutrients, and lighting can alter a corals colors, but once in its ideal environment the colors are what they are.

As long as there are quotas in place, and they are regulated. I see no real threat to reefs from fragment collecting. Just like pruning a plant, cutting the corals, if done correctly can actually be beneficial. For centuries, storms have battered reefs around the world to their bare base, and they continue to thrive. This hobby and the corals brought into it keep people interested, and it helps bring awareness and understanding of corals and reefs in general, to people who may never come close to a living reef.

Yes... to an extent.... example - I purchased a beautiful grape acro (my avatar photo) from Jason Fox. Over time, it shifted from dark purple to a beautiful olive green with bold purple ends. The purple isn’t just on the tips but rather it extends down and blends with the green. I wish I could get a photo but it’s in a real awkward place and no picture I’ve ever taken does it justice. Anyway, I sent Jason an email asking if he would share his water parameters in more detail and told him what had happened to the frag I purchased. He responded that many of his corals look different in different tanks. I could use the same salt, have the same water parameters, have the same lights on the same schedule, the same flow, even the same inhabitants and, still, our tanks would absolutely be different in almost every other way.

As far as corals reaching potential, who’s to say what that is? By the time you get a frag of coral A, it likely looks totally different than the wild colony it came from years ago. As far as I know (and I could be wrong) there is little to no difference in zooanthella from one acro to another. Only the conditions where it is kept, influences it’s metabolism. This is evident every time someone buys a frag that ultimately looks nothing like it did when they got it. No water is the same, whether natural or man-made, therefore there is no end point that every coral should or would attain. So reaching “max potential,” as far as I can tell, isn’t possible. It’s not measurable by any standards. Heck, if you picked up a whole acro colony off a reef somewhere, drove it 10 miles further down the reef, then replaced it, you probably wouldn’t recognize it five years later.

Btw.... sorry I derailed the thread!