Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

[MnFish1]

I’m curious about this study about tangs. How does one track a fish in the wild for 40 years to determine its lifespan? Seems overly daunting to say the least.

They use markings in the inner ear much like you can count rings on a tree to tell how old it is. Here is the link:https://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2009/389/m389p245.pdf

 

[shred5]

yep, the biggest bully wins

Not always I had 6 that are still alive except for one. I lost him after they moved to their new tank. Might have jumped or just died and truthfully he may be there still they are hard to count. They are probably close to 4 years old now.

You are right it does happen allot though where you end up with one.

I do not know why I am successful. I got them super tiny...

 

[Mortie31]

I have known very few people who left the hobby over fish dying but I know tons of people who left because something came in on a coral like flatworms, algae or Vermetid snails.

That’s where having a big, varied clean up crew, a tang and wrasse come in.... my fish and hermits pounce on new corals as soon as I put them on the sand bed to rest... it’s a bit like a dinner bell to them

 

[Scott Campbell]

That’s where having a big, varied clean up crew, a tang and wrasse come in.... my fish and hermits pounce on new corals as soon as I put them on the sand bed to rest... it’s a bit like a dinner bell to them

So predation rather than immunity?


Here is an interesting article that is tangentially related to this whole thread:

Study suggests gut bacteria helped shape mammalian evolution

The call to evolve could be coming from inside the house mouse.

phys.org

I don't believe disease immunity is very easy to acquire or even plays much of a role in our tanks. I believe a tank full of critters ready to "pounce" on harmful organisms is the best strategy. As you note above. But I do believe certain diets can create "good" bacteria in the digestive system of the fish. Much like certain carbon dosing mixtures create better or more helpful bacteria than other mixtures. And better gut bacteria can help a fish thrive. So I absolutely believe the diet Paul offers his fish is a key to his success. Again - just not for the reasons he offers up.

 

[Mortie31]

So predation rather than immunity?

For coral pests and nuisance algae absolutely

 

[Scott Campbell]

For coral pests and nuisance algae absolutely

Why not instead try to build up the immunity of corals by repeatedly exposing them to coral pests? As Paul recommends with fish.

And why try to boost the immunity of fish when you could simply add a "clean-up crew" that targets fish parasites? Since you believe that approach is so effective for corals.

 

[Mortie31]

And why try to boost the immunity of fish when you could simply add a "clean-up crew" that targets fish parasites? Since you believe that approach is so effective for corals.

I’m not sure why you have the attitude?? Can you name any CUC that targets CI or velvet?
Several wrasse species will target Vermatid snails for instance, as well as flatworms... emerald crabs will eat bryopsis... why is it people who don’t have enough CUC complain most about nuisance pests?? need I go on???

 

[Mortie31]

Why not instead try to build up the immunity of corals by repeatedly exposing them to coral pests?

Is that even possible ?? Do corals have immune systems??? Or was it a very poor attempt at sarcasm??

 

[Scott Campbell]

Is that even possible ?? Do corals have immune systems??? Or was it a very poor attempt at sarcasm??

I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic. I believe sponges, tube worms, clams, tunicates, corals and most any filter feeder will target free swimming stages of CI or Velvet in the same manner that an emerald crab goes after bryopsis. Just a CUC on a lower level of the food chain.

Corals and fish are both animals. I would imagine corals can develop immunities. Why not?

My point was simply - why do you accept Paul's thesis that exposure to harmful organisms is a good thing for fish but not a good thing for corals.

 

[Mortie31]

I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic. I believe sponges, tube worms, clams, tunicates, corals and most any filter feeder will target free swimming stages of CI or Velvet in the same manner that an emerald crab goes after bryopsis. Just a CUC on a lower level of the food chain.

Corals and fish are both animals. I would imagine corals can develop immunities. Why not?

My point was simply - why do you accept Paul's thesis that exposure to harmful organisms is a good thing for fish but not a good thing for corals.

No worries cool... I have no reason to think that about corals as simply I’ve never read anywhere that corals have an immune system.. can zooanthallea have an immune system? But I 100% believe biodiversity and predation protects corals

 

[Scott Campbell]

No worries cool... I have no reason to think that about corals as simply I’ve never read anywhere that corals have an immune system.. can zooanthallea have an immune system? But I 100% believe biodiversity and predation protects corals

Here is a rather simplistic article about coral immunity. There seems to be a lot of literature on the subject.

It's time to take a more holistic view of coral reef health

A new paper from a coral expert suggests that researchers need to pay more attention to what keeps corals healthy—not just what makes them sick.

www.popsci.com

I absolutely believe biodiversity and predation protects coral. I also absolutely believe biodiversity and predation protects fish. Or that it is at least the primary source of protection from harm in our tanks. Paul believes immunity acquired through exposure to disease and consumption of parasitic organisms coupled with an absence of prophylactic treatment is the primary key to fish and coral health. We both might be spectacularly wrong - but we are both at least somewhat consistent. And obviously both positions are too simplistic - many, many factors are involved.

You seem to take one position for coral and another position for fish. I'm just curious to know why.

 

[Mortie31]

You seem to take one position for coral and another position for fish.

I’ve always believed fish have immunity and environment and diet strengthen it, until know ive never thought about coral immunity, ive just always kept a very biodiverse system with large numbers of cuc in the thought that they predated and protected the corals/clams and kept nuisance algae in check, I also feed pods and phyto to feed the bottom of the chain... be interested to look into coral immunity.. be interested to know your thoughts on, can acropora corals protect themselves from AEFW or if it’s the acro crabs that eat the eggs?

 

[Scott Campbell]

I’ve always believed fish have immunity and environment and diet strengthen it, until know ive never thought about coral immunity, ive just always kept a very biodiverse system with large numbers of cuc in the thought that they predated and protected the corals/clams and kept nuisance algae in check, I also feed pods and phyto to feed the bottom of the chain... be interested to look into coral immunity.. be interested to know your thoughts on, can acropora corals protect themselves from AEFW or if it’s the acro crabs that eat the eggs?

My personal feeling is that reef animals of all types live in a much more stable / consistent and inter-related environment than most other animals. So that they are more dependent on external predation and the dense web of life that surrounds them for survival rather than a particularly aggressive individual immune system. Freshwater fish, for example, exist in environments that can change suddenly and dramatically. So a strong individual immune system is probably more valuable. It is obviously much more complicated than that - but I have noticed over the years that freshwater fish don't seem to need a surrounding ecosystem to thrive and avoid disease. Saltwater fish and corals, however, seem to struggle long-term in more sterile or isolated environments. Some reefkeepers make it work through very rigorous protocols. But a tank like Paul's - filled with everything imaginable, "good" and "bad" - seems a better recipe for success.

So to answer your question - I would be very hesitant to depend on corals or saltwater fish being able to develop immunities and survive diseases and parasites on their own. I think biodiversity and the predation that is part of a more complete ecosystem is critically important. Which is why individual tanks and public aquariums that lack that biodiversity depend so heavily on medications, quarantine, parasite avoidance and disease prevention. And why I don't believe Paul's immunity thesis really holds up.

But that is just my two cents.

 

[Mortie31]

My personal feeling is that reef animals of all types live in a much more stable / consistent and inter-related environment than most other animals. So that they are more dependent on external predation and the dense web of life that surrounds them for survival rather than a particularly aggressive individual immune system. Freshwater fish, for example, exist in environments that can change suddenly and dramatically. So a strong individual immune system is probably more valuable. It is obviously much more complicated than that - but I have noticed over the years that freshwater fish don't seem to need a surrounding ecosystem to thrive and avoid disease. Saltwater fish and corals, however, seem to struggle long-term in more sterile or isolated environments. Some reefkeepers make it work through very rigorous protocols. But a tank like Paul's - filled with everything imaginable, "good" and "bad" - seems a better recipe for success.

So to answer your question - I would be very hesitant to depend on corals or saltwater fish being able to develop immunities and survive diseases and parasites on their own. I think biodiversity and the predation that is part of a more complete ecosystem is critically important. Which is why individual tanks and public aquariums that lack that biodiversity depend so heavily on medications, quarantine, parasite avoidance and disease prevention. And why I don't believe Paul's immunity thesis really holds up.

But that is just my two cents.

Couldn’t agree more

 

[MnFish1]

Is that even possible ?? Do corals have immune systems??? Or was it a very poor attempt at sarcasm??

Coral have immune systems..... Here is an interesting article. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180709101152.htm

 

[Mortie31]

Coral have immune systems..... Here is an interesting article. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180709101152.htm

Cool thanks for this and @Scott Campbell for your article... these are the findings for me that makes our hobby constantly gripping and amazes me further as I learn more...

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Advanced aquarist

How coral cures your ills

Next time you successfully fight off a nasty infection, give thanks to the Great Barrier Reef. A dramatic discovery by an Australian team of scientists has revealed that the ability of humans to resist bacterial diseases may go as far back in our ancestry as corals.

www.advancedaquarist.com

Researchers at the ARC Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies (CoECRS) have found three genes in Acropora (staghorn) corals which show a very fast, strong immune response to the presence of bacteria – and the same genes also occur in mammals, including people.
“It’s early days, but it certainly looks as if key aspects of our ability to resist bacteria are extremely ancient and may have been pioneered by the ancestor of corals – and then passed down to humans in our evolutionary lineage,” explains team leader Professor David Miller of CoECRS and James Cook University.
“Corals are constantly attacked by bacteria in their natural environment, and so have perfected very efficient defences against them,” he says. “These defences apparently work well enough to be preserved in mammals like us, and possibly in plants too. Certain animals in between us and coral, like roundworms and flies, seem to have lost these genes, but our line appears to have retained them.”
The genes belong to a family known as the GiMAPs and have been associated with anti-bacterial immunity in mammals, including humans.
The team made its discovery by challenging living colonies of Acropora with certain chemicals commonly found in the coats of bacteria, and studying which genes reacted across virtually its entire genome of 20,000-plus genes.
“We were quite surprised at how rapidly and strongly these three genes in particular reacted to the presence of bacterial proteins,” Prof. Miller says. “It was spectacular.”

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

Lost a fish in QT today. Don’t know why. He didn’t have any spots or visible signs of illness. Can’t help but wonder if he would have lived had I put him straight into the DT ...

 

[Paul B]

Hard to say, but fish are very stressed in quarantine, maybe more than being captured as that only lasts a few days but quarantine can last for a few months.

 

[Lovemyreef2015]

Lost a fish in QT today. Don’t know why. He didn’t have any spots or visible signs of illness. Can’t help but wonder if he would have lived had I put him straight into the DT ...

Sorry you lost your fish