Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

Paul B

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From an Old thread:

The advantages of keeping a natural Reef

We all know that there are many ways to run a tank but I would like to start a thread about keeping a natural reef. The ocean is natural and the fish there are all very healthy and never have to worry about getting sick, getting enough food, getting enough sunlight, exercise etc. They do however have to worry about getting eaten by something larger or getting caught in a net, suffocating on the deck of a ship then being stuffed into a small can labeled "Dolphin Safe".

None of the tanks we keep are natural by any stretch of the imagination but I feel we should strive to get as close to naturel as we can.
There is a reason for this thinking. Fish in a natural, unstressed state are just healthier. They are healthier because they eat better and by that I don't mean the foods they eat have more nutrition, although they could have. I mean they eat healthier because the foods they eat have the living bacteria in them that help keep fish immune from disease.
Fish are different from most of us and some of us smell better than fish. Fish in the sea eat mostly fish and crustaceans and many of us also feed that type of food, but fish in the sea eat whole fish and crustaceans, bones, guts, eyes and all. It is difficult for us to get very tiny whole fish for food and I discussed this point with fish food manufacturers a few times. I can buy very tiny whole maceral babies in an Asian market but they are always freeze dried with the consistency of wood. Fish won't eat wood and neither would I. :cool:

My last few weeks in Viet Nam we were issued what they call LURPS. It's basically freeze dried stew but if you tried to eat it without adding boiling water, it would be like eating Styrofoam with powdered Styrofoam on top of it. Our problem was that we hardly had water, much less boiling water. If you just added water the same temperature as our tanks, it would just float, and you still couldn't eat it. That’s the same problem with trying to feed our fish freeze dried food. :confused:

The ingredient in foods that will keep the fish immune is the bacteria and parasites in its gut and a wild fish eats that at every meal. A fishes gut, or intestine and stomach is filled with bacteria just as ours is. We and the fish need that bacteria because it is that bacteria that keep us healthy. That is the reason that when we take antibiotics we get the "runs" and feel lousy. The antibiotics kill our stomach bacteria and we can’t live without it. I don't really know how fish feel but I do know they are supposed to have a gut filled with live bacteria and parasites as all the fish in the sea do.
That is the reason fish in many tanks are so delicate and the reason for all the disease threads. Fish are actually very robust and rarely, if ever get sick on the proper diet. A healthy fish in a natural tank will eat right away and not hide for days at a time, unless it is a type of fish that is supposed to do that. All healthy fish will also try to spawn. Of course if you have an algae blenny it won’t try to mate with a whale shark.
So many people have trouble with feeding fish such as mandarins, copperbands, moorish Idols etc. That is because IMO, it is not a natural tank. ;Sour

When we get the fish from a store, that fish may have been collected a month ago. In that time it was not eating the food it is supposed to eat along with the bacteria and parasites it is used to eating. It’s like us on antibiotics and its stomach and intestines are not working properly because a fish gets its immunity from its kidney and the kidney knows what types of immunity it should churn out by the types of bacteria and parasites in its stomach.
If we get a new fish and put it in a tank with copper or antibiotics, that fish is off to a bad start. I myself used to do that. Treat new fish just to make sure they were “healthy”. I learned the hard way that that is not the way to go. Naturally if we get a fish in the process of having last rites, or if an angelfish is giving it mouth to mouth resuscitation, we have to treat it, but we should rarely get a fish like that.
Healthy fish in natural tanks spawn continuously because that’s what fish do. :D

The Mother fish imparts her immunity to her fry so it can survive its first few days outside the egg because a fish fry has a thin coat of slime which is the fishes only defense against pathogens. If that slime doesn’t have any immunity in it from its Mother, it cannot survive because it will be attached by every pathogen in the sea, or a tank. If it’s Mother doesn’t have immunity, neither will its babies because where would it come from? The baby fish hasn’t yet been exposed to anything so it could not get any immunity and it would not survive. As that baby fish starts eating, it consumes bacteria and parasite laden foods which it should be immune to, but only if it got that immunity from an immune Mother.

If you keep a sterile tank with no input of natural bacteria or parasites, that fish will always be at risk of infection from bacteria, viruses and parasites so everything in contact with it needs to be quarantined. But even if you quarantine everything that is in contact with that fish, you can’t keep all disease bacteria away from it, especially if you buy coral or rock because those things, even if quarantined for years can harbor disease pathogens in the form of viruses and bacteria that quarantining will have no effect on. Quarantining can remove parasites, but nothing else.

You can’t turn a sterile, quarantined tank into a natural tank very easily because those fish have no natural immunity to anything because they are not exposed to anything so it would be a slow and possibly scary process. The fish would need to become infected, and then cured by un natural means until the fish builds up immunity or unfortunately, dies.
It is much easier to set up a natural tank in the beginning but of course that can also be scary, especially if you are new at this. If I were to set up another tank tomorrow I would do it almost exactly like I set up my present tank. Reverse Undergravel filter and all, but I doubt the UG filter has much bearing on the health of the fish. :D

I am lucky that I can get some natural water and mud from the sea, but I also add regular dirt from outside my house. Dirt that doesn’t have pesticides, fertilizer, weed killers or battery acid from a 1957 Oldsmobile Cutlass. I add a little soil, not for the soil, but for the bacteria. If I collect earthworms for food, I leave the dirt on. It’s the same dirt that is inside the earthworms. Eating a little dirt won’t hurt us and it won’t hurt your fish.
I would also feed something with live bacteria in it at every meal. I use white worms, blackworms, earthworms, or clams that I buy live and freeze myself. Clams that you freeze yourself would still have the same bacteria in it as when the clam was alive because our home freezer is not that cold. Processed fish food you buy is questionable as to the presence of bacteria because it needs to be somewhat free of bacteria so it can last and be sold. It may also be irradiated.
(If I could only use one food, it would be clams)
Our fish should only die of old age and fish on the proper diet in a natural tank do.
This is all just my opinion of course and I would like to hear your ideas on keeping fish healthy :rolleyes:

Ref:
Me
Long dead biologists

I also make chowder out of them.
 

Thaxxx

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@Paul B
If you were to be starting a new tank, would you fatten up all the new fish with your seafood diet and observe for a period of time before putting them in your DT?
And, if so, what if even after that, you have for example, a ick outbreak in a few of the fish. What would your next step be?
 

Paul B

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No, they would go right into my tank and eat seafood like all my fish do.
If they got ich, they would get over it as long as they were not quarantined.
 

Paul B

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In the last few weeks I added a queen anthius, blue stripe pipefish, bleeny, bananafish and an arrow crab.
I know many people say I don't add much livestock but many of our fish have a short lifespan like pipefish and small gobies so they have to be replaced in 5 or 6 years.

My hippo tang is maybe 6 or 8 months old, not a spot on him or a scale out of place and he will remain like that for 10 or 12 years as they always do.

Merry Christmas to everyone here. :D
 

MnFish1

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In the last few weeks I added a queen anthius, blue stripe pipefish, bleeny, bananafish and an arrow crab.
I know many people say I don't add much livestock but many of our fish have a short lifespan like pipefish and small gobies so they have to be replaced in 5 or 6 years.

My hippo tang is maybe 6 or 8 months old, not a spot on him or a scale out of place and he will remain like that for 10 or 12 years as they always do.

Merry Christmas to everyone here. :D
Merry Christmas - in the wild tangs live much longer - its sad they do so poorly in our tanks.

 
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Terri Caton

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100% agree with Paul B. I have Ich in my tank. (Rescue tank that already came with it). I've added 10 new fish and only one didn't make it. That one was barely alive when I got it so was already compromised more than usual.

And, yes, they all had visible spots of Ich after a few days.

I'm not saying Never resort to modern medicine. In extreme cases this might be needed. But in general super fresh, whole fish food (I do add some Selcon) works like a charm.
 

Hot2na

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partially agree...I do 10 days hypo @ 1.010...3 days food soaked in fenbednazole..Then once introduced into main tank..lots of live foods as per pauls regimen...It works well for me.
 

ZAN KHAN

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I read Paul's post about his method (no quarantine") and I liked it. It sounds logical and it's the way nature works. However, I see that there are way more people who quarantine fish than those who don't. So then his method is not welcomed? And it's not right? What do you think?

(https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-other-way-to-run-a-reef-tank-no-quarantine.534274/)

he makes sense because you are weakening the immune system of fish, making it actually susceptible to the naturally existing parasites. i often compare the health of a reef to that of our own immune system and microbial balance in our gut, skin, and overall system. we have more foreign DNA than human DNA that makes up our bodies. And the more biodiverse and untampered (antibiotics, steroids, NSAID, etc.) that our bodies are, the greater our immune system can check and balance itself. I am now attempting to create a self sustaining reef as well... going slow and limiting heavy bioload contributing species. Great thread you shared, it's difficult to have this perspective shared in a way that makes sense and he did a good job.
 

atoll

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The reasons we were often quoted for fish catching itch and dying were that our fish are in such a confined space and very limited water compared to life in the ocean and that the fish had little or no chance of surviving it unless we medicated with copper. While there maybe some truth in the confinement part in that itch will easily be passed on between fish that later as we have seen is far from true. They say prevention is better than cure. Well there is to my mind two types of prevention, QT with or without medication and diet, diet being the most natural and IMO by far the best and preferred method for what would seem a limited number of us. Immunity though correct feeding must be the method of choice in the vast majority of cases.
 
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Paul B

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in the wild tangs live much longer - its sad they do so poorly in our tanks.
This I am sure is true. All of our fish are lacking something in their diet in a tank, but a tang is missing far more than the correct food. Tangs including Hippo's live in schools. They always live in schools and you never see a lone tang in the sea. (I do often see yellow tangs by themselves in the sea, I am not sure why)

Like Rock singers, Taylor Swift, football players, The Rockettes of Radio City, and Supermodels they all need other "people" or fish around them or they are lost. A tang never finds it's own feeding grounds, it follows the mind set of the entire school which could be thousands of individuals. No one is sure how they do this because the leader always changes and anyone could lead the school.

Because tangs live so close to each other, they have a much more developed lateral line system that allows them to swim millimeters from each other without even a fin hitting their neighbor and allowing them to all turn at once, even at night.

They can also all dive into a coral head, even backwards,
without even a tail fin sticking out, they know they will fit and they never get scratched.
Their well developed lateral line, while being an advantage in the wide open sea is a disadvantage and even a curse to them in a tank.

Their lateral line, which is a line of fluid filled nerves along their side, allows the fish to "feel" it's surroundings even though it can't see them. Unfortunately they can also feel the glass of a tank and can't get away from it. They can "feel" the substrate and surface in a tank and know they are in 18" of water and adult tangs hang out in much deeper water where they are not prey to birds and us hobbiests.
(Although I am firmly against quarantine, I am more so with tangs for this reason)

Our pumps, I am sure also drives them crazy as that is not a normal ocean noise which they are not hearing like they were used to.

These un natural things are "IMO" why we lose tangs and they are so suseptable to HLLE, ich, velvet and everything else.
HLLE "always" starts on the head right where the lateral line connects to the brain. I feel it is overwhelmed as the noise and signals never stop so it starts to deteriorate.

(I don't go with the carbon fines theory of HLLE although it could hasten the progress)

I have kept maybe 3 hippo tangs past ten years and I think I euthanized them, not because of disease but because of HLLE.

HLLE is not a disease but a condition of the environment. That first Hippo was in a 40 gallon tank and the other two were in a hundred gallon tank. Those tanks are much to small for a far swimming "technically advanced" fish such as a tang which navigates with such sensitive "sonar".

My newer Hippo tang is in a 125 gallon tank which I feel is still to small and I only have one tang so I am fairly sure it will, after 8 or 9 years develop HLLE.

Fish in the sea do not get that and it doesn't kill the fish. But if you keep the fish long enough it can get to a point of having hardly no colored skin and the creature looks horrible although I am not sure if it affects their "feeling".

Also not all tangs in captivity get HLLE. I am not sure why but most people also don't keep them for 15 or 20 years. Even 10 years. Most people can't keep anything past 10 years which I am also not sure about.
 

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