Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

[Subnautica]

HaHa. I love this. Another Paul B doesn't know a fish from Bernie Sanders thread.



In the almost fifty years my tank has been running I have had numerous tangs, acanthurus, hippo, sail fin, yellow and the stuff astronauts drink in my tank. I also used to keep mainly puffers and eels. I find those fish boring now and only have a hippo tang as they are really cool looking and have a little personality, unlike most tangs that just swim around going "Doot Da Do, Doot Da do" and waiting for the tang in front of him to decide to turn or eat. ;Wideyed
They die of old age as they should and never get ich.




I can answer this as I have been in this since the 50s. The saltwater hobby started in Europe but came to the States in about 1971. I think it was on a Tuesday and I was there waiting to buy the first blue devils and dominoes that arrived here. (I speak on this)

In those days we had authors like Burgess, Axelrod and Robert Straughn. Straughn was my mentor but I always disagreed with the other two even though they have more degrees than thermometers.

Quarantining was always in style because we didn't know much about parasites, there was no liquid copper,
(we used copper pennies and copper scrubbing pads)
But most importantly we didn't understand the role bacteria played in the fishes immune system.

Also, our tanks were filled with dead coral skeletons as live coral was not available. WE would remove the dead coral weekly to bleach it so it was nice and white.
The fish hated us and always had ich, so much in fact that we had to continuously keep copper (pennies) in the water.
Our tanks were not very healthy.

I discovered in about 1973 or so that If I fed the fish something with living bacteria a few times a week, I could eliminate the copper. I used live blackworms and since about 1975 or so,my fish have never had a parasite or anything else.



And to me, "to Quarantine is irresponsible." It's like that boy in the bubble. He can live in there forever as long as no one enters who also does not live in a bubble and if Nancy Pelosi sneezes near that bubble, he will die.
A quarantined fish always needs to be in quarantine and never have contact with anything with any disease bacteria on it. Is that normal? In the sea fish always eat live prey or seaweed with the associated bacteria and parasites. I have been SCUBA diving for 50 years and never saw a fish in the sea with ich, velvet or anything else.

It is much more normal to have a tank where diseases are a non issue and the fish never get sick and only die of old age. If you ever have a fish that dies from anything else besides jumping out, starving or being bullied, you failed. Sorry, but that was your fault.

Fish should never get sick and if you have a tank where disease bacteria, parasites and vintage Linda Ronstadt music is played, they will live forever.

I have some 28 year old fish along with 10 year old copperband and very old mandarins, pipefish etc. that don't worry about such things. Yes, even tangs, puffers, manta rays and everything else.
My fish always eat and never have to be coddled. Why is that? Am I the smartest fish keeper? I doubt it. Best looking? Well, maybe

If anyone on here has old, spawning fish that have been quarantined raise your hand. Old fish are not 5 or 6 years old.
How many people have quarantined fish that die only of old age? How many quarantined tanks have never had a disease? How many fish die in quarantine? Don't believe me, look at the disease forum. They usually start out like this:

"I bought such and such a fish and it was eating linguini in the store. I brought it home and before acclimating I dipped it in fresh water, then put it in Prizapro then 60 days in quarantine.

After a week it started swimming near the top of the water. Then it got spots so I dosed copper.
It stopped eating, and the next day it croaked so my wife divorced me and ran away with our butcher even thought my wife is a vegan. "

But when I get a fish, I bring it home and after 10 minutes of acclimating I put it in my tank. He immediately eats and in 10 or 15 years exhibits senility (depending on what type of fish it is as pipefishdon't live that long but clowns live into their 30s)

The thing dies and my wife is still with me after 45 years but she is not a vegan.

Oh finally you chimed in. Sorry if my thread feels unnecessary. I could have posted in your thread but the last comment was back in July.

 

[TaylorPilot]

I think we need to start clarifying what people mean when they say they quarantine, I think they fall into 2 main categories..
1) use chemoquarantine on all fish
2) Have a natural as possible observation tank, where fish are observed for a period of time, then only medicated if signs of disease or parasites are seen.
There is a world of diference between the two, I personally find scenario 1) unethical as I think submitting potentially completely healthy fish to chemicals that can affect there immune system, cause toxicity build up in there organs, cause unneeded stress and suffering and likely lead to a reduced lifespan... scenario 2) is far more palatable and ethical as you would be treating a diagnosed disease/ parasite, and as long as the environment was relatively stress free, I don't think many of us who oppose quarantine would argue so strongly against it..
I personally couldn’t claim to love my fish if the first thing I did when receiving them by mailorder was to “mildly” poison them even though they were healthy...

Then how do you know which new fish are healthy or not and need to start treatment.

 

[MnFish1]

Yep. It should also be said, fish die of disease in the ocean too where they are exposed to all the bacteria and parasites that supposedly boost their immunity in a reef tank.

I might change my mind about this if someone dumped a Acanthurus tang or puffer in that tank and it survived long term.

Just like in nature - lets say 50 tangs are exposed to velvet. - how many would survive (40)? iDK - Who wants to do that experiment at home - payng a large amount of money to do so (no one). T here is a fair bit of commentary and articles out there suggesting that tangs are no more or no less susceptible to disease

 

[Mortie31]

Then how do you know which new fish are healthy or not and need to start treatment.

Observe then diagnose

 

[ImNemo]

Quarantine or not, The only way you can guarantee a fish is disease free or not would be to incinerate it. Oh wait, that's not very good advice. Belay my last and carry on.

 

[TaylorPilot]

Observe then diagnose

But it has been proven multiple times that a large variety of fish will appear asymptomatic, you cannot tell what a fish carries simply by observing them.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes totally it can be done, there are so many more tanks that don’t quarantine other than Paul’s. As to whether more people quarantine than don’t I’m not so sure your correct as every poll on here comes up with a different answer, then factor in those that don’t quarantine everything and those that don’t do it properly and do people who quarantine actually report accurately the number of fish they lose in quarantine, as every day you can read about an issue, as well as sadly read about fish deaths in unquarantined tanks... the answer isn’t black and white... if you are mad enough/ have to, buy fish through mailorder, without seeing its health first, if it’s eating, how is it behaving then I think your asking for trouble... I don’t quarantine anything at all but I hand pick everything that goes into my tank and take my time doing it...

I disagree a little - I think most people do not 'treat empirically' for multiple illnesses as some people here recommend - most people do not even observe their 'livestock' in a seperate tank before putting them in the display.

I for example - buy my fish from a store that does not use copper, that allows me to observe them in their (medication free) tank for a good period - and then purchase - I have never had a problem. There are so many versions of 'what QT means here - that it almost becomes a moot question - since every answer become an extremely individual answer - based on where the person got their fish, etc etc.

BTW - I think @Paul B would agree with me - there is not only one method - he has observed fish at different points - and treated fish for disease when needed (though My guess is he will say most of the time - diseased fish healed 'on their own').

 

[MnFish1]

I am curious about how long the process of quarantining has been used in the hobby and how many of the long term hobbyists employ some sort of quarantine process. By long term I mean 20+ years. Looks like it's time for another poll mods!! On another note, I really don't believe that the majority of people posting on forums are totally honest about actual losses using both methods. Just my opinion.

Whether right or wrong - every zoo in the country has a biosecurity program. They must be publishing articles and doing it for some reason.

 

[MnFish1]

To not QT is irresponsible. Twice in the past 8 months I’ve introduced a fish that has wiped out a couple thousand dollars in fishes. Ich is never a concern for me but velvet is. And for anyone who claims great success without doing QT has never dealt with velvet.

At the very least, put the fish in a semi-normal habitat (some rock) and observe the fish for a week. If it dies, it dies. If it lives, put it in your DT and hope it doesn’t have ich. But give it time to die before adding it.

I agree that fishes in a tank can get some sort of tolerance to parasites but why are you risking things if you don’t need to?

And just as a side note: success isn’t those people who maintain a tank with the same fishes over 20 years. Success is those that deal with new fishes on a regular basis and don’t have major losses to parasites.

This makes sense - but - why is the 'average person' (i.e. reader here) buying fish and adding them (often) unless either they are building new tanks (not the average person) - or losing fish due to some problem with their husbandry

 

[LIreefguy]

Paul b. You collect mud for lagoons on Long Island

Also live on the island. I would think it might be polluted

 

[cain720]

I've haven't quarantined for 9 years and have yet to have a fish die from Ich. I rarely see any signs of disease, and if I do, it's for a day or so before it clears up.

I think a huge factor is stocking. A conservatively stocked tank minimizes stress which is a huge trigger for disease outbreaks. The majority of "show" tanks I see I would consider overstocked.

 

[MnFish1]

I actually add the water my new corals and fish come in from my purchases to my tank as I want to enrich the biodiversity of my tank.

For others who might think this is a 'good idea' - many LFS - and online sellers sell their fish with copper in the bag/tank. Adding that would be an extremely bad mistake unless you know whats in the water (and its not a good idea in any case - im most biosecurity protocols - including those that go for the drop in the tank method')

 

[KrisReef]

I read Paul's post about his method (no quarantine") and I liked it. It sounds logical and it's the way nature works. However, I see that there are way more people who quarantine fish than those who don't. So then his method is not welcomed? And it's not right? What do you think?

(https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-other-way-to-run-a-reef-tank-no-quarantine.534274/)

Great topic for discussion.
Your question formulation “Not Welcome” or “Not right” could contaminate the discussion ( which I have not read this far.)
I can say:
@Paul B ’s way of doing a tank is interesting since he claims that it works for him.

I’ll take the time later (When I’m not busy) to evaluate this thread discussion to see how it unfolded. I think that kind of “consideration” for different methodologies is most productive for learning how to achieve our own success.

As best as we can, asking unbiased questions can be key to understanding other people’s methods and their results (claimed).

Sorry if this reply seems critical or off topic. I don’t always start working with a good question in my own life and have learned, and am still learning to improve on the kinds of questions I ask when making critical enquiries.
I have a very good respect for Paul B’s methods and don’t quarantine myself but I see the benefits that can come with medication of new imports into a captive environment.

Again, great thread concept for discussion, just a little concerned for the initial posing of the questions.

 

[MnFish1]

I love these threads.
Almost everyone just doesn't get it. Forgoing quarantine doesn't mean to buy a fish and throw it into any tank. It would probably die as most fish are not kept healthy enough.

I also believe that allowing your fish to become sick is horrible which is why I never let my fish get sick. They are just not allowed to do that. And, yes, I mean velvet and anything else as you have never seen me on a disease thread for these diseases on any forum at any time for any thing except trying to give advice. and I have been on forums since the Roman Empire invented dirt

I am also tired of arguing as my fish longevity speaks for themselves so I have nothing to prove. But I will try to offer some advice, even if you want to quarantine. If you don't want this advice, I think there is a re run of Oprah giving away Toyota's to homeless cats.

Our fish need bacteria in their food as they eat every day in the sea. That is a fact and I didn't make it up, so at least get some live bacteria into your fish and not only from commercially sold food. I use LRS foods and Larry, the owner is a nice guy and I have spoken to him. I love his food and think it is the best "commerical" food there is.

I use it everyday and it even has probiotics which I also think is great. "But", I also feed live worms and/or clams that I buy in a supermarket and freeze myself. It is harder to feed like this but IMO it is needed to get fish immune and keep them immune.

LRS food and all foods do not have disease organisms in them. Most people wouldn't want that rightly so.
There is the problem. If fish never meet disease organisms, they can not stay immune from them.

Immunity in fish, us, Myley Cyrus, Aardvarks, Duck Billed Platypuses and every other living thing requires living disease organisms to stay immune to them.
So, if you do not feed these things, keep quarantining as your fish are not whole fish and have no operating immune system.

That in a nutshell is the reason people fail when they do not quarantine.
Don't downplay my system if you don't know, or don't want to know how to implement it.
Remember, I used to quarantine and was here when we invented it.

I buy fish with ich, velvet and any other thing I can find just so my fish stay immune. Many times I get fish for free because the store owner knows they will shortly die. I throw them in my tank (and I post about it) The fish may live or die, but the rest of my fish thank me because it strengthens their immunity

Many of my fish are not the easiest to keep and are considered delicate. They wouldn't fare well if I allowed them to get sick.

Stocking density (lower the better) filtration (more the better) flow (more the better) might also play a role. Or?

 

[Mortie31]

But it has been proven multiple times that a large variety of fish will appear asymptomatic, you cannot tell what a fish carries simply by observing them.

So you would recommend chemoquarantine in a hypothetical possibility that your fish may be asymtomatic? I personally don’t agree with any quarantine at all, I was merely outlining the 2 most common quarantine methods, neither of which I personally feel are necessary

 

[MnFish1]

Another issue is as we are moving to more captive breeding as more closures go into effect. These captive bred fish have no immunity to any diseases because they have never been introduced to them. You do not treat a wild fish and it gets mixed with a captive bred fish...

This is an interesting point - The people that are proponents suggest that captive fish are much healthier overall - and thus their innate immune system (rather than their 'specific' immune system) are in much better condition

 

[Mariette]

I’ve had disease wipe out my tank 3 times. I follow a strict qt process now. No qt is a gamble. It’s not for me

 

[MnFish1]

A 10 or 29 gallon QT is all fine and good for small fish, but what about the 6 tangs I just got? The naso alone is about 8". Am I supposed to put all 6 tangs in the same 29 gallon tank for 30-60 days and assume that everything will be ok? NO! Big tanks (and big tangs) require BIG QT systems as well (if you QT).

If you just bought 6 tangs - and dont have room for a QT tank you're going to have other problems on this thread....... (unless you have a 500 hundred foot long tank - which accordibg to some - would be needed ) - I dont concur btw) Good luck with your tangs

 

[TaylorPilot]

So you would recommend chemoquarantine in a hypothetical possibility that your fish may be asymtomatic? I personally don’t agree with any quarantine at all, I was merely outlining the 2 most common quarantine methods, neither of which I personally feel are necessary

If I had a display full of perfectly healthy expensive fish and was about to introduce a fish I got from a LFS with who knows what in the water. Yes, yes I would. To me it is the same as the anti-vaccination issue. What is more unethical. Asking everyone to vaccinate their kids, or allowing one un-vaccinated kid go to school and get other healthy kids with possible immunosuppressive issues sick.

 

[Subnautica]

Great topic for discussion.
Your question formulation “Not Welcome” or “Not right” could contaminate the discussion ( which I have not read this far.)
I can say:
@Paul B ’s way of doing a tank is interesting since he claims that it works for him.

I’ll take the time later (When I’m not busy) to evaluate this thread discussion to see how it unfolded. I think that kind of “consideration” for different methodologies is most productive for learning how to achieve our own success.

As best as we can, asking unbiased questions can be key to understanding other people’s methods and their results (claimed).

Sorry if this reply seems critical or off topic. I don’t always start working with a good question in my own life and have learned, and am still learning to improve on the kinds of questions I ask when making critical enquiries.
I have a very good respect for Paul B’s methods and don’t quarantine myself but I see the benefits that can come with medication of new imports into a captive environment.

Again, great thread concept for discussion, just a little concerned for the initial posing of the questions.

Yes I was concerned about my word choice in my initial post as well. Unf I can't edit it

So what I meant was to ask people their opinions as to why they don't follow Paul's method. I'm not bashing anyone, just curious.