Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

William Mumford

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Give it time, he will end up on the fish disease page looking for advice. I hope that is not the case, but eventually you roll snake eyes and have to start over.
Assuming is worse than cockiness. I will let you know. Not getting anymore fish for a long time. Mine are all healthy and I cant fit anymore in the tank.
 
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Halal Hotdog

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After 40 years I doubt it @Paul B is legendary. He talked about dropping a fish that had ich into his dt. tank. Paul is not a reefer I want to argue with. His methods speak for themselves.
Paul has a very unique system that gets constant additions from the ocean. All living organisms have a predator. It is very possible that Paul has a microscopic organism in his system that consumes holoparasite. It could be something else. He has regularly added mud and water from the ocean, his situation to replicate would be VERY difficult, if not impossible. He seems to be more of an outlier than the standard.
 

Dom

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I read Paul's post about his method (no quarantine") and I liked it. It sounds logical and it's the way nature works. However, I see that there are way more people who quarantine fish than those who don't. So then his method is not welcomed? And it's not right? What do you think?

(https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-other-way-to-run-a-reef-tank-no-quarantine.534274/)

In my opinion, first, fish in our tanks are not in nature, but in a controlled environment. Yes, we try to simulate nature in our tanks. But nature does not work the same within the confines of our tanks.

For me, it is about risk. And I am not a gambling man.

Imagine having a 10 year old 300 gallon tank. Over those years, that tank has matured and is stable. You have the tank dialed in perfectly; corals are thriving, $2000 (maybe more) in assorted fish are peacefully coexisting, one Nem has become 6, your clams are happy.

Then you get a cute little Dottyback or Watchman Goby. He "looks" healthy, so you get impatient and instead of QT, you drip acclimate and add him to the tank.

3 days later, he's exhibiting symptoms of Velvet.

Now your tank is contaminated, other fish are infected.

Do you really want to throw 10 years of work and THOUSANDS of dollars away because you couldn't be patient?

No thank you. I'd rater be safe than sorry.
 

LIreefguy

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I actually lost more fish from jumping then anything else

I bought 90 fish in last 4 years didn’t qt any but did hand pick each fish after observing them at lfs. Normally waited for them to have fish 2 weeks minimum. Lfs does use cooper and u/v and low salinity.

I had 6 fish just die on my

1 yellow tang (after 2 years)
1 Bang cardinal ( after 2years )
2 leopard wrasses tired 2 times ( less week)
1 blonde naso (2days )
Lost 10 wrasses to jumping
And 3 wrasses I never found again
I do have a dog
 

lpsouth1978

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I find this whole thread quite intriguing. I have followed strict QT procedures in the past and had TERRIBLE results. I have had FAR more fish die from the stresses of QT than I ever have without. Will I lose fish because I decide not to QT anymore? Sure. Will I lose fish in QT? ABSOLUTELY!

Not everyone has the facilities to perform QT on all new acquisitions, I know I don't. I also don't purchase fish worth a small fortune. I watch for fish that are eating, are fat and active, show no signs of flashing or scratching, etc. In my 15 years of reefing I have only lost a few fish to disease, and in every instance I was to blame. I either overstocked the tank, slacked on maintenance, got some chemical in the tank that didn't belong, added incompatible tank mates, etc.

To simply say "give it time" or "eventually he will regret it" seems like very narrow minded thinking to me. Even after a proper QT, done PERFECTLY, fish can and will get sick. It may not be ich or velvet, but there are still illnesses that can effect them regardless of these procedures. If you honestly believe that QT'ing means your fish will always be healthy and NEVER get sick. well.....

Every time you put food (especially live), arms, nets, water, salt, etc. in the tank, there is a risk that you have added some bacteria or pathogen to your water that has the potential to affect the health of your fish, however small that risk.

As for me, I have NO plans to QT now or in the future. Thank you Paul for sharing your method, and showing reefers around the world that with proper care, it is possible to keep a healthy and thriving Reef without the need to QT.
 
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Paul B

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Give it time, he will end up on the fish disease page looking for advice.
This better happen quick as I doubt I have much time left. So I guess if my tank crashes now at 48 years old people will say it is because I didn't quarantine and the ticking time bomb exploded. o_O

he encourages nature, actively adds diversity..
Yes I do and I feel my tank is about as close to the sea as you can get. For the last 15 months it is 100% NSW that I collect myself in the sea. It is not filtered by anyone before I get it right from the shore. A few times a year I go to a lagoon in the sea and collect all sorts of amphipods, worms, seaweed, copepods, crabs shrimp, snails and most important mud.

I get this home and without any fanfare, dump it in my tank. I have always done this as I want the diversity in the mud.

Before I lived near the sea I sometimes used garden soil. (I didn't come up with that, it was Robert Straughn "The Father of Salt Water fish keeping.")

I am sure in all that stuff I add from the sea and all the creatures I have bought over the 5 decades and thrown in there I added velvet and ich. Maybe there is so much velvet that it scared away the ich. :cool:

OK all the people with the old quarantined tanks where the fish are spawning and only dying of old age, raise your hand.

Higher. :cool:

This hobby has been around for close to 50 years and I don't see those tanks around. What happened to them?
If you keep some fish for 5 or 6 years, that is not a success as that is about half the age of a hermit crab.
To me success is only if the fish are dying of old age like I want to die from.
If the people in a town live to about 50, I wouldn't want to live there as there is something wrong there. Maybe too much Rap music. :eek:

Many of our fish should average about 15 years, thats tangs, angels, wrasses and some others. Clowns should live into their 30s and pipefish croak at about 5 years. Bangai cardinals have one of the shortest lifespans of all fish living about 4 or 5 years in the wild.

These hermit crabs died about a week apart at 12 years old. The female is the sexy one with the above the knee shell and the blue eyeshadow. I even caught them spawning a few times as I said, everything that is paired should spawn.

 

andyg1960

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I’ve never quarantine a fish in my life, And I have a thriving tank. There are many people that quarantine that have lots of problems there are many people that don’t quarantine that have lots of problems. Therefore quarantining does not solve all problems and not quarantining does not guarantee a problem
 

Halal Hotdog

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This better happen quick as I doubt I have much time left. So I guess if my tank crashes now at 48 years old people will say it is because I didn't quarantine and the ticking time bomb exploded. o_O



Yes I do and I feel my tank is about as close to the sea as you can get. For the last 15 months it is 100% NSW that I collect myself in the sea. It is not filtered by anyone before I get it right from the shore. A few times a year I go to a lagoon in the sea and collect all sorts of amphipods, worms, seaweed, copepods, crabs shrimp, snails and most important mud.

I get this home and without any fanfare, dump it in my tank. I have always done this as I want the diversity in the mud.

Before I lived near the sea I sometimes used garden soil. (I didn't come up with that, it was Robert Straughn "The Father of Salt Water fish keeping.")

I am sure in all that stuff I add from the sea and all the creatures I have bought over the 5 decades and thrown in there I added velvet and ich. Maybe there is so much velvet that it scared away the ich. :cool:

OK all the people with the old quarantined tanks where the fish are spawning and only dying of old age, raise your hand.

Higher. :cool:

This hobby has been around for close to 50 years and I don't see those tanks around. What happened to them?
If you keep some fish for 5 or 6 years, that is not a success as that is about half the age of a hermit crab.
To me success is only if the fish are dying of old age like I want to die from.
If the people in a town live to about 50, I wouldn't want to live there as there is something wrong there. Maybe too much Rap music. :eek:

Many of our fish should average about 15 years, thats tangs, angels, wrasses and some others. Clowns should live into their 30s and pipefish croak at about 5 years. Bangai cardinals have one of the shortest lifespans of all fish living about 4 or 5 years in the wild.

These hermit crabs died about a week apart at 12 years old. The female is the sexy one with the above the knee shell and the blue eyeshadow. I even caught them spawning a few times as I said, everything that is paired should spawn.

Lol Paul I wasn't referring to your system, but the comments of someone else. I am pretty sure you tank will out live me :).
 

living_tribunal

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Diseases and pests can't affect your tank if they are not introduced. Stick with the data, science, and protocols that professional zoos and aquariums use to keep their systems healthy, quarantine.

You'll gain peace of mind knowing that you most likely won't have to worry about pests and disease. Your fish will enjoy not having to constantly fight disease and infection.
 
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Mortie31

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I find this whole thread quite intriguing. I have followed strict QT procedures in the past and had TERRIBLE results. I have had FAR more fish die from the stresses of QT than I ever have without. Will I lose fish because I decide not to QT anymore? Sure. Will I lose fish in QT? ABSOLUTELY!
Thankyou some honesty about mortality during QT
 

sfin52

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Diseases and pests can't affect your tank if they are not introduced. Stick with the data, science, and protocols that professional zoos and aquariums use to keep their systems healthy, quarantine.

You'll gain peace of mind knowing that you most likely won't have to worry about pests and disease. Your fish will enjoy not having to constantly fight disease and infection.
Aquariums have rooms dedicated for qt. Usually in a different building than the dt. They have fancy sterilization systems and what not.
I don't have room in my house for a qt. I don't have an extra room to dedicate to a qt either.
 

fishybizzness

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Diseases and pests can't affect your tank if they are not introduced. Stick with the data, science, and protocols that professional zoos and aquariums use to keep their systems healthy, quarantine.

You'll gain peace of mind knowing that you most likely won't have to worry about pests and disease. Your fish will enjoy not having to constantly fight disease and infection.
Imho I feel that quarantining never gives you peace of mind. You are always worried about adding something that could be harboring a pest of some sort. Once you start, you can never stop. Everything must be fully quarantined for months and there will always be that chance that some parasite or bacteria has lived through the process. I remember reading recently from @Humblefish i believe that certain parasites, don't remember if it's velvet or brook, had survived copper treatment past the normal treatment timeframe. Dealing with possibilities like that is way more stressful than an immune natural tank such as many people run.
 

Paul B

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I don't have one or even a hospital tank or medications. :D
I do have a small tank in case I collect something in the sea that is still to small to add to my tank like a baby whale shark. First I let it grow a little :rolleyes:

But immune fish won't get sick, ever. If they do, they were not immune and you probably fed freeze dried food or flakes and never gave them living bacteria.

OK I am still waiting for those old quarantined tanks. I know they are out there.
I do know that Humblefish has one. But he is a good friend of mine so his fish may be healthy through osmosis from knowing my fish. :cool:
 

Mortie31

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I think we need to start clarifying what people mean when they say they quarantine, I think they fall into 2 main categories..
1) use chemoquarantine on all fish
2) Have a natural as possible observation tank, where fish are observed for a period of time, then only medicated if signs of disease or parasites are seen.
There is a world of diference between the two, I personally find scenario 1) unethical as I think submitting potentially completely healthy fish to chemicals that can affect there immune system, cause toxicity build up in there organs, cause unneeded stress and suffering and likely lead to a reduced lifespan... scenario 2) is far more palatable and ethical as you would be treating a diagnosed disease/ parasite, and as long as the environment was relatively stress free, I don't think many of us who oppose quarantine would argue so strongly against it..
I personally couldn’t claim to love my fish if the first thing I did when receiving them by mailorder was to “mildly” poison them even though they were healthy...
 

lpsouth1978

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How tight is your room that you can't fit a 10g or 29g for QT?
A 10 or 29 gallon QT is all fine and good for small fish, but what about the 6 tangs I just got? The naso alone is about 8". Am I supposed to put all 6 tangs in the same 29 gallon tank for 30-60 days and assume that everything will be ok? NO! Big tanks (and big tangs) require BIG QT systems as well (if you QT).
 

Paul B

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That is true, quarantining is a catch all word. I don't think there is anything wrong with watching a fish in a separate tank "as long" as that tank is not decorated with PVC fittings and has some gravel or sand. The tank should also be large enough so the fish is not stressed.

Of course I wouldn't do that because I want the parasites, but it would work for some people.
 

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