Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

Jon Fishman

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QT usually lack a good biological filtration, and therefore, can easily build up ammonia and nitrates faster than the display and may need water changes more often than a DT. Your DT has a massive support system behind it, from biological to mechanical filtration. Your one QT experience may have been impacted by this. Or it could just be that your fish was stressed from travel and would have done fine after a couple days more in the QT.

Try @Humblefish 's thread on TTM. This is particularly useful and minimizes the possibility of nutrient build-up.
Locally purchased fish, minimal travel. I will look into options though. I am fine having just one fish if QTing is too difficult, or if I fear the ability to find healthy fish
 
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Paul B

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There are studies that certain strains of ich can become aerosolized and travel up to ten feet. I
I don't know about that, but remember, I am not trying to eliminate parasites, just the opposite so if ich can fly, they can fly into my tank as I welcome the extra immunity. :D


Under Paul B's method (or lack of method as he describes)
Tricia, I do have a method. I mention that in the post after yours.
I also volunteer at the Long Island Aquarium and rescue turtles, mermaids, whales and anything else that washes up on the beach behind my house. :)

Humblefish is a good friend of mine. :cool:
 

PanchoG

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Oh boy, this thread is about controversy. In my case I do not QT, I did for a very brief period of time and lost 4 fish. So now everything goes to the DT and I let the fish survive, I am feeding dry, freeze and live food every week. I am trying to go in the same path as Paul B.
 

Paul B

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If you are trying to go with my method, throw out the freeze dried food unless you first put a drop of fish oil or krill oil on it.
That is actually very healthy
 

truetricia

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Tricia, I do have a method. I mention that in the post after yours.
I also volunteer at the Long Island Aquarium and rescue turtles, mermaids, whales and anything else that washes up on the beach behind my house. :)
[/QUOTE]

@Paul B Apologies, I thought you said it was a lack of a method! I was only trying to quote you there, not diminish your process.

A fellow rescuer! I thought I remembered that about you! Your experience there probably is a huge benefit to your ability to handle issues in your tank! Wait, mermaids?! :)

A good example of immune issues is that of morbilivirus. It's a derivative of parvovirus, a common pathogen in dogs for which they are immunized. It mutated and became morbilivirus in marine mammals. It's hypothosized that it was transmitted from dogs to sea lions and seals on the beaches, and from there, to other animals. Marine mammals that contract morbilivirus have a 99% chance of death. Prior to morbilivirus, many aquaria would put rescued marine mammals directly into their tanks with their established captive animals. However in the 80's, the virus started spreading, and many public aquaria that took in rescues lost dozens of beloved captive animals, including the facility I used to work at. For that reason, the facilities stopped putting in rescues into their main tanks and putting them instead into quarantine facilities.

When I'm doing rescue work, NOAA bans us from visiting any public aquaria for 72 hours after handling a wild animal, and we are put on a circulated list that goes out to all aquaria. SeaWorld has an entire facility and staff dedicated to rescue work that don't go near their captive-bred animals for disease transmission reasons.

There's so much about marine diseases that we just don't know!
 

truetricia

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Oh boy, this thread is about controversy. In my case I do not QT, I did for a very brief period of time and lost 4 fish. So now everything goes to the DT and I let the fish survive, I am feeding dry, freeze and live food every week. I am trying to go in the same path as Paul B.
I don't think it's about controversy. I think it's about understanding why some methods work and others don't, and the reasons behind them.

@Paul B obviously has a method that works for him with no QT. But he has a rationale that surrounds it, such as supporting the immune systems through proper nutrition. But he also, having been in the hobby for so long, knows how to deal with issues when they arise.

Not every hobbyist will. Not QT'ing involves risks. QT'ing does as well, such as stress on the fish. But when deciding between the methods, people should try to understand the science, processes, and rationale behind the various methods rather than just assuming things based off of anecdotal experiences of fellow hobbyists.

But it's absolutely a personal decision.
 

Jase4224

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I find this method wrong and careless. Anyone who follows it is just waiting for the ticking time bomb to go off. I don't want to see my tank with white spots all over my fish worrying about their health constantly. I've lost hundreds in fish in the past for not quarantining. Why take that risk again? Since the saying "nothing good comes fast in this hobby"... why should that exclude quarantining fish? I'll stick to Humblefish's advice.
You’ve lost hundreds of fish? That’s crazy! No offence but to my mind you are doing something wrong other than simply not quarantining your fish. Or else the quality of fish that is supplied to you is terrible!

I don’t QT and haven’t for 15 years. Only experience with disease came after extreme aggression and subsided once the aggression was stopped.

I have nothing really against QT but I figure if you do then you need to go all out and QT everything.

An observation tank is a great idea imo but again it’s another step in the process.

I collect NSW as well as live food so for me any QT would probably be undermined by this.

There may not be anything to this but I noticed in this thread as well as others that pro QT reefers tend to have experienced terrible mass losses and then began to QT as a result. If you have a mass loss of fish from disease then some other factor is involved. Large groups of animals don’t randomly contract disease and die in the wild without some kind of an imbalance.
 

Jon Fishman

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If you are trying to go with my method, throw out the freeze dried food unless you first put a drop of fish oil or krill oil on it.
That is actually very healthy
So I feed all frozen and some nori now. I don’t even know if my fish eats the rod’s but it eats mysis, and nori. I feed the corals too so........

Either way, I have my Quoyi Parrot doing great. Anything you would recommend doing specifically to new fish before dropping them in? I don’t want go wipe out the tank, I just want to have 3 total fish, so I want to add 2 more “somethings” and my QT attempt with the Parrot was scary
 

Squidward

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You’ve lost hundreds of fish? That’s crazy! No offence but to my mind you are doing something wrong other than simply not quarantining your fish. Or else the quality of fish that is supplied to you is terrible!

I don’t QT and haven’t for 15 years. Only experience with disease came after extreme aggression and subsided once the aggression was stopped.

I have nothing really against QT but I figure if you do then you need to go all out and QT everything.

An observation tank is a great idea imo but again it’s another step in the process.

I collect NSW as well as live food so for me any QT would probably be undermined by this.

There may not be anything to this but I noticed in this thread as well as others that pro QT reefers tend to have experienced terrible mass losses and then began to QT as a result. If you have a mass loss of fish from disease then some other factor is involved. Large groups of animals don’t randomly contract disease and die in the wild without some kind of an imbalance.
Hundreds as in dollars, not quantity of fish. Yes it seems hobbyists only turn to QT after big losses. Which I'm one of them.
 

boacvh

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Thanks for this. I am a newbie so I won’t dispute a method that has been successful for someone for so many years. After reading Paul’s thread it all makes so much sense to me, but like anything I would assume it’s not fool proof. I would assume in nature there are also pathogens and parasites where any immune system needs a little extra help at some point (like ours with antibiotics or vaccines), so would assume also in some instances medications or QT would also make sense. But, I would also think the probability of getting one of those more aggressive forms is pretty low, so Paul’s method should work the majority of the time for me.
The only quetion I wanted to ask about, was that even if we stop the “short circuit”, aren’t our LfS to some degree creating that short circuit anyway before the animals make it to our home? Thanks!
 
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ImNemo

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I stopped quarantining my fish but I do have a hospital tank that can be setup. Fish get sick too and just like us most of the time their/our immune can fight it off but every now and then it's best to see a dr.

It's also best to feed them a healthy diet so they can build up an immunity and have a chance to fight it off. I do also soak all their food in selcon and garlic. Does it help? I dunno, I've had sick fish bounce back after being treated and some that didn't.

I've treated ich, brooklynella and intestinal parasites and luckily I've never battled Velvet.
 
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PanchoG

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I don't think it's about controversy. I think it's about understanding why some methods work and others don't, and the reasons behind them.

@Paul B obviously has a method that works for him with no QT. But he has a rationale that surrounds it, such as supporting the immune systems through proper nutrition. But he also, having been in the hobby for so long, knows how to deal with issues when they arise.

Not every hobbyist will. Not QT'ing involves risks. QT'ing does as well, such as stress on the fish. But when deciding between the methods, people should try to understand the science, processes, and rationale behind the various methods rather than just assuming things based off of anecdotal experiences of fellow hobbyists.

But it's absolutely a personal decision.
What I meant is we will never convince all people go one direction or the other because obvious risks and benefits on both ways. We all are very attached to the method we experienced to be successful. As you said is personal decision.
 

shred5

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Another issue is as we are moving to more captive breeding as more closures go into effect. These captive bred fish have no immunity to any diseases because they have never been introduced to them. You do not treat a wild fish and it gets mixed with a captive bred fish...
 
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andyg1960

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There is nothing natural about a fish tank. There are 300 quintillion gallons of water in the oceans and our tanks have 50-100. Diseases do not have a chance to destroy every fish in the ocean. It does in our tanks. Quarantine.
Except that the guy has been very successful for close to 15 years with fish inverts and other things that are almost impossible to keep in captivity using his method and not quarantining so it’s really kind of hard to argue with that level of success
 

MichaelReefer

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I've never and still dont qt, i do use a acclimation box to inspect and watch fish for issues. I do a dip before introducing them to my tank... I have lost new fish to issues but rarely my long term inhabitants. I've definitly lost more fish to incompatibility and aggression than disease. It's not the popular method. But it works for me
My LFS QTs all of their fish, and they have such fast turnaround that I dont bother. I drip acclimate everything (Even coral) for about an hour. Try to do it on my Water Change days. And I have never had a problem *knock on wood*. I don't want to have to deal with another tank, and not seeing my fish in the main tank. I'm a bit impulsive but no problems yet.
 

shred5

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Except that the guy has been very successful for close to 15 years with fish inverts and other things that are almost impossible to keep in captivity using his method and not quarantining so it’s really kind of hard to argue with that level of success

I bet I made it 15 years and probably a lot longer till one day I didn't and lost almost all my fish...
 

Paul B

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Wait, mermaids?! :)
Yes, but only the ones with nice personalities. :cool:

If you have a mass loss of fish from disease then some other factor is involved. Large groups of animals don’t randomly contract disease and die in the wild without some kind of an imbalance.
True. And that loss was your fault. I know about hurricanes, black outs, floods, pestilence, kids throwing bars of soap into the tank, very large anemones dying and clogging the pumps, fires, over heating, over cooling, broken heaters, etc. as my tank has seen all of it. Remember since 1971 we have had a lot of weather and a few times I had no power for days. I never experienced any losses. None, not one.
A little over a year ago I moved my entire tank here to my new house. I took everything and put it in vats where it stayed for a few days with no heater or air,
I quickly collected cold Atlantic water and warmed it up so I could throw in my fish and corals. I lost nothing, not even amphipod.

Here is the thread about it with 26,000 views so I know some of you read it.:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/moving-47-year-old-reef-60-miles-omg.407827/

Healthy fish in spawning condition can take a lot of abuse because they are complete fish with an operating immune system. Quarantined fish are not, and that type of stress would most likely kill them but I am not sure.

I have had fish jump out and I throw them back, they also live (usually depending on how long they were out)
If I ever lose a fish it will be my fault, not the LFS, the wholesaler or the guy in the canoe that collected it.
I love this hobby. I have to as I am 70 years old and have never lived one day of that without a tank of some type from when I was about 5. I may have had them before that but I was drooling and forgot. :p

I have seen all the methods come and go as well as many hundreds of hobbiests .
I also know quite a few people who wrote books besides myself including Albert Thiel who we just lost.
He got into the hobby a couple of years after me. I am also friends with Bob Goemans who many probably never heard of.
I didn't start this last Tuesday and decide to not quarantine. I have not had just one tang, I had dozens.
Look at the fish I was keeping in the 70s. Before we had medications, experts, credit cards, Justin Bieber, Aids, forums, Nike sneakers, Mp3 players or cell phones.
I also helped to start 4 aquarium stores and used NSW in one of them which I collected in my boat. ;)



I am just trying to offer a way to keep your fish from dying as I hate to see that happen because I love fish so much. I also love to eat them, but that is another story.

 
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