Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

motortrendz

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I've never and still dont qt, i do use a acclimation box to inspect and watch fish for issues. I do a dip before introducing them to my tank... I have lost new fish to issues but rarely my long term inhabitants. I've definitly lost more fish to incompatibility and aggression than disease. It's not the popular method. But it works for me
 

reefproaquatics

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I am curious about how long the process of quarantining has been used in the hobby and how many of the long term hobbyists employ some sort of quarantine process. By long term I mean 20+ years. Looks like it's time for another poll mods!! On another note, I really don't believe that the majority of people posting on forums are totally honest about actual losses using both methods. Just my opinion.
public aquariums are a perfect example for measuring success with quarantine over a very long term period
 

MichaelE

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I don’t QT, I’ve done QT with prophylactic treatments of copper and other poisons before and I really didn’t like that approach, especially for more sensitive species.
No QT for the better part of 17 years hardly any problems so far.

The most common “disease”, ich, is really a non issue according to me. If you practice good husbandry, avoid overstocking your tank to reduce stress and feed your fish a nutritious and varied diet you really shouldn’t have any problems.

Now, there are a lot worse things than ich out there to be scared of but thankfully the supply chain in Sweden/Europe doesn’t seem to be as infested as the US one.
I think that in combination with the fact that we can’t really buy fish online, we have to go to a LFS where we can view them, helps out a lot.

Basically QT is not the norm here and most folks are doing alright.

What I do like is the thought of having a separate tank to condition new arrivals before they go in the main display and I’m giving serious thoughts about setting up such a system.
 

MichaelE

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Interesting, I imagine they could only transport as far as the droplet goes which if you have a cover should only be a few inches at most
That would be logical. Don’t quote me in it but I remember something about that after 200cm there’s hardly any risk of transmission.
 

OrionN

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QT in the normal sense is for the health of the the tank, not of the new fish.
I don't QT in the normal sense. I do keep new fish separate from other inhabitants of the tank so I can get him use to captivity and eating withour been harrased by other fishes. It is either in my lighted sump with is full of rock and algae, or in my invertebrate QT system where i use to QT clams, anemones and corals. This tank is full of rock and algae too. Both places are full of pods.
 
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To not QT is irresponsible. Twice in the past 8 months I’ve introduced a fish that has wiped out a couple thousand dollars in fishes. Ich is never a concern for me but velvet is. And for anyone who claims great success without doing QT has never dealt with velvet.

At the very least, put the fish in a semi-normal habitat (some rock) and observe the fish for a week. If it dies, it dies. If it lives, put it in your DT and hope it doesn’t have ich. But give it time to die before adding it.

I agree that fishes in a tank can get some sort of tolerance to parasites but why are you risking things if you don’t need to?

And just as a side note: success isn’t those people who maintain a tank with the same fishes over 20 years. Success is those that deal with new fishes on a regular basis and don’t have major losses to parasites.
 

fishybizzness

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public aquariums are a perfect example for measuring success with quarantine over a very long term period
I think that's a stretch to compare a public aquarium with 10s to 100s thousands of gallons of water to a home aquarium. I'm sure most if not all of them have some sort of quarantine process but they also have other safeguards such as huge uv filters as well as a multitude of aquarist as well as vets on staff monitoring every exhibit on a 24-7 basis. I'm pretty sure they regularly treat the exhibits with a multitude of medications to keep the fish and other inhabitants healthy as well. Most of them imho feed restaurant quality seafood to the tanks as well. They most likely purchase the sealife from reputable sources. It's probably very difficult to avoid cross contamination when dealing with such a large scale. I've read too many posts about people going through a full quarantine, fallow period for months on end only to put the fish back in the main display and experience cryptocaryon or other diseases within a short period. I do believe that quarantine, when done correctly, works but I also feel that most people do not have the time or the patience to do it correctly. I also strongly believe that by running a fully quarantined tank I run a bigger risk of having a total crash than a system where immunity is boosted through proper nutrition. The reason that I believe this is that in my opinion, fish in a managed tank are more able to deal with the inevitable introduction of any of a number of diseases than those in a fully quarantined tank. It's extremely difficult as well as time consuming for the average aquarist to follow such a strict protocol. For all but the most experienced, something will slip through the cracks. For me personally, as I've stated in other posts, going through a quarantine/fallow process for months only to have diseases reappear after adding the fish back to the display tank would probably be enough to make me leave the hobby. I'm pretty sure that a large number of people that have left the hobby have done so for these very reasons.
 

Elegance Coral

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public aquariums are a perfect example for measuring success with quarantine over a very long term period
My LFS closed down a few months ago. They had a pair of four foot long green moray's that needed a home. They went to a public aquarium on the east coast of Florida, where they are undergoing a six month long quarantine.
 

Crossfire

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I don't QT If I buy from the LFS the fish has been there at least 2/3 weeks before I take it.
This is a good point. Personally, my LFS quarantines fish for me. I'm lucky and have a ridiculously nice store by me. If you really don't want to do it, ask your LFS which fish you want to buy and have them do it for you.
 
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Crossfire

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I agree that a lot of fish will get ich and it will go away. If it was only ich that we needed to worry about, it would not be that bad. But if you get Marine Velvet into your system you will never ever just add fish again without some sort of QT.

Velvet is horrific. It will kill every fish in your tank in such an awful way.
 

mrpizzaface

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It is important to understand the pros and cons of either method. Then one can them make the decision that is the best for there situation/ point of view.
There is no right or wrong in this situation. You can change you mind later if your situation or point of view shift.
 

Elegance Coral

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I have nothing but respect for Paul B, and I'm thankful for his many contributions to the hobby, but that does not mean I agree with him on every topic. This is one where we do not agree.

If we pack a bunch of really healthy people into the same room and force them to live together, sickness can spread easily. All it takes is one person to come in with the flu and they all can get sick. Even if they have really strong and healthy immune systems. Even healthy immune systems can be overwhelmed.

I agree with Paul B, in that, a strong immune system is a good thing, and we should all strive to produce one in our pets. Unfortunately, that can never prevent our fish from becoming ill.

The last time I did not QT, which was about 10 years ago, I purchased a pair of clowns from one of the major breeders in the country. Given the fact that these were captive bred, and should have never come into contact with a wild, diseased, fish, I did not QT. I put them right into my clownfish system. This system had multiple pairs, that were healthy, well fed, and spawning. Within about a week of introducing the new pair, every fish in the system was dead, from brook. Some fish that I had for more than a decade.

Now I QT EVERYTHING. Even snails. I have roughly 60 fish right now, and I'm adding fish all the time. It's nice to know that I don't have to worry about most parasites and sickness whipping out my entire collection.

Peace
EC
 

Crabs McJones

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I used to not qt
Then I lost a fish to velvet and my other fish became infected. Moved everyone to quarantine and treated for 30 days and left my display tank fishless for 80 days. Now NOTHING enters my tank without going through quarantine treatment. Only way to be sure. It's good knowing I have no parasites in my display tank :)
 

ScottR

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I read zero posts in this. We’ve seen this before, many times. I’ll just share my experience. I get all my fish straight from the ocean. I use ocean water to seed and replenish my tank from time to time. I have lots of live rock that have god knows what on them. I have strange things show up and disappear, never to be seen again. I have never lost a fish to ich. Actually I have. But it was with a tank I set up with dry rock, salt and water. My thinking is simple: create an environment where there are multiple organisms that keep each other in check. If you don’t want to do that, then QT everything - and follow your desired method.
 
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Paul B

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HaHa. I love this. Another Paul B doesn't know a fish from Bernie Sanders thread. :D

I might change my mind about this if someone dumped a Acanthurus tang or puffer in that tank and it survived long term.
In the almost fifty years my tank has been running I have had numerous tangs, acanthurus, hippo, sail fin, yellow and the stuff astronauts drink in my tank. I also used to keep mainly puffers and eels. I find those fish boring now and only have a hippo tang as they are really cool looking and have a little personality, unlike most tangs that just swim around going "Doot Da Do, Doot Da do" and waiting for the tang in front of him to decide to turn or eat. ;Wideyed
They die of old age as they should and never get ich.


I am curious about how long the process of quarantining has been used in the hobby and how many of the long term hobbyists employ some sort of quarantine process.
I can answer this as I have been in this since the 50s. The saltwater hobby started in Europe but came to the States in about 1971. I think it was on a Tuesday and I was there waiting to buy the first blue devils and dominoes that arrived here. (I speak on this)

In those days we had authors like Burgess, Axelrod and Robert Straughn. Straughn was my mentor but I always disagreed with the other two even though they have more degrees than thermometers.

Quarantining was always in style because we didn't know much about parasites, there was no liquid copper,
(we used copper pennies and copper scrubbing pads)
But most importantly we didn't understand the role bacteria played in the fishes immune system.

Also, our tanks were filled with dead coral skeletons as live coral was not available. WE would remove the dead coral weekly to bleach it so it was nice and white.
The fish hated us and always had ich, so much in fact that we had to continuously keep copper (pennies) in the water.
Our tanks were not very healthy.

I discovered in about 1973 or so that If I fed the fish something with living bacteria a few times a week, I could eliminate the copper. I used live blackworms and since about 1975 or so,my fish have never had a parasite or anything else.

To not QT is irresponsible.
And to me, "to Quarantine is irresponsible." It's like that boy in the bubble. He can live in there forever as long as no one enters who also does not live in a bubble and if Nancy Pelosi sneezes near that bubble, he will die.
A quarantined fish always needs to be in quarantine and never have contact with anything with any disease bacteria on it. Is that normal? In the sea fish always eat live prey or seaweed with the associated bacteria and parasites. I have been SCUBA diving for 50 years and never saw a fish in the sea with ich, velvet or anything else.

It is much more normal to have a tank where diseases are a non issue and the fish never get sick and only die of old age. If you ever have a fish that dies from anything else besides jumping out, starving or being bullied, you failed. Sorry, but that was your fault.

Fish should never get sick and if you have a tank where disease bacteria, parasites and vintage Linda Ronstadt music is played, they will live forever.

I have some 28 year old fish along with 10 year old copperband and very old mandarins, pipefish etc. that don't worry about such things. Yes, even tangs, puffers, manta rays and everything else.
My fish always eat and never have to be coddled. Why is that? Am I the smartest fish keeper? I doubt it. Best looking? Well, maybe :rolleyes:

If anyone on here has old, spawning fish that have been quarantined raise your hand. Old fish are not 5 or 6 years old.
How many people have quarantined fish that die only of old age? How many quarantined tanks have never had a disease? How many fish die in quarantine? Don't believe me, look at the disease forum. They usually start out like this:

"I bought such and such a fish and it was eating linguini in the store. I brought it home and before acclimating I dipped it in fresh water, then put it in Prizapro then 60 days in quarantine.

After a week it started swimming near the top of the water. Then it got spots so I dosed copper.
It stopped eating, and the next day it croaked so my wife divorced me and ran away with our butcher even thought my wife is a vegan. :eek:"

But when I get a fish, I bring it home and after 10 minutes of acclimating I put it in my tank. He immediately eats and in 10 or 15 years exhibits senility (depending on what type of fish it is as pipefishdon't live that long but clowns live into their 30s)

The thing dies and my wife is still with me after 45 years but she is not a vegan.

 

brandon429

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I’ll chime in same as last 150 page thread on the same matter. Unless we make this a work thread vs a theory thread, no new science develops. Only rehashing

Work thread = new keepers show up post cycle, they’re advised how to prep tank / environment for no disease no qt, and that’s done live time.



In the new keepers forum we turn a new cycled tank ready for fish 5x daily everyday

I could aim quite a numerous group of willing participants / someone make a work thread and if the disclaimer intro is acceptable to the masses then many will show for no disease no qt fish proofing. We will have results within three months via post patterns and updates. 78% of test entrants are coming from petco must have popcorn.
 
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Paul B

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Brandon, for some reason many people refuse to get their fish into that condition and prefer to allow fish to become sick, then try to cure them.
Also, which I always say, a new tank is never a healthy tank as that will take a few years so it would be much harder in a new tank. But if a new tank is started with fish from the sea and not exposed to medications or quarantine, and fed the food I propose from the start a few times a week, the tank will become immune.

But if a tank is started using asw and everything is quarantined, I can "almost" guarantee that that tank will have disease problems. Fish from the sea come to us already immune but they were not eating and under stress. Our job is to get that fish comfortable and eating the right foods before it becomes overcome with parasites. Their immune system will start functioning soon and parasites will never kill that fish.

If you feed flakes, pellets or a lot of commercially available food and never feed anything withreal, live bacteria like live worms or clams, the method will not work.

Thats why so many people fail trying to get along not quarantining.

I use a reverse undergravel filter. I am one of the only ones doing that as everyone says they can't work.
That can't work and shunning quarantining so I have healthy fish also can't work. And yet, I have the oldest tank on here with no problems. Now isn't that special. :p

 

Squidward

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I find this method wrong and careless. Anyone who follows it is just waiting for the ticking time bomb to go off. I don't want to see my tank with white spots all over my fish worrying about their health constantly. I've lost hundreds in fish in the past for not quarantining. Why take that risk again? Since the saying "nothing good comes fast in this hobby"... why should that exclude quarantining fish? I'll stick to Humblefish's advice.
 

Halal Hotdog

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I hate quarantining fish, but there is something I hate more, losing fish. All the arguments about physical inspection is how diseases is prevented, is flat out wrong. Most stages of a parasitic infection show no physical manifestation. Beyond that, it may manifest purely in the gills and not be easily seen. I wish I didn't have to quarantine, it is a huge headache, but I value my fish too much to not take steps to keep them healthy.

In the ocean parasite falls off fish and the fish can leave the area. Our systems are closed, no where for the fish to escape to.
 

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